Legal penalties for Illegal Grooms

[Cactuskate]

Having just gotten up off my lazy rear and since I am “at work” could take advantage of my access to the I-9 form. Maybe this will clarify.

Employment Eligibilty Verification (Form I-9)

The employee is attesting, under penalty of perjury, that they are(check a box)
1.A citizen or national of the US
2.An alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence (Alien Number A )
3.An alien authorized by the Immigration and Naturalization Service to work in the US (Alien Number A_)or Admission Number __________, expiration of employment authorization, if any ______________)

Signature required and date.

Then the employer must:
Examine one document from List A or one from List B AND one from List C. Providing Documentation Numbers and Expirations dates.

List A:
US Passport, or Certificate of US Citizenship, or Certificate of Naturalization or Unexpired foreign passport with attached Employment Authorization, or Alien Registration Card with Photograph.

List B:
A state issued driver’s license, or a State issued ID card with a photograph or information, including name, sex, DOB, ht, wt, color of eyes, or US Military Card, or Other(specify document and issuing authority)

and from

List C:
Original Social Security Number Card (other that a card stating it is not valid for employment), or Birth Certificate issued by state, county or municipal authority bearing a seal or other certification, or Unexpired INS Employment Authorization(specify form #___________________)

Then the employer attests, under penalty of perjury, that they have examined the documents, they appear genuine etc, etc.

Fact remains this form is necessary for any LEGAL employment. Whether you were born outside of this country and want to work or you were born in Hometown, USA.

I believe this indicates one could obtain a SS card for banking purposes for example, but would clearly state not eligible for employment.

[This message has been edited by Cactuskate (edited 10-17-2000).]

[heelsdown]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cactuskate:

“So why are the standards and benefits and rights so different for people that have not gone through the immigration channels and are in our country ILLEGALLY? It is not like it is some hidden condition. We actually call them ILLEGAL aliens.”

Heelsdown Reply:
Isn’t it obvious? If you are working in a country illegally your employer is likely paying you in cash. There is probably little or no record of your employment. You can’t pay taxes, even if you wanted to. You can’t vote, you’re not a citizen. IF there is a problem you can’t complain to officials, you’ll get deported. The employer pays you less than he would have to because he can, knows that you are desperate for work and he exploits that. IN the horse biz these workers are often dependent upon their employer for housing too, making them even more beholden to their employers. I don’t know what these employers do when one of the illegal alien workers get hurt. Do they just dump them at the county hospital and tell them not to tell that they work here?

[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 10-15-2000).]

[Goodyfourshoes]

edit

[Janet]

What about non-resident aliens who have US bank accounts? They have to have a SS number, and pay taxes. Is it a DIFFERENT kind of SS card?

When I start a new job, the HR department always wants to see my green card. They are not satisfied with drivers license and social security card. In fact, they never ask to see my social security card, they just want to know the number.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cactuskate:

Then the employer must:
Examine one document from List A or one from List B AND one from List C. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that
“(A or B) and C”
or is it
“A or (B and C)”
?

[jumpcrew]

“Grooms” got me thinking. What exactly are the legal penalties and legal liability for hiring illegal aliens?. What if they get hurt on the job? Can an illegal sue? What is the total liability, especially when they are paid in cash with no fed-state taxes, insurance witheld, etc???

[Janet]

An illegal alien is still, in principle, entitled to due process, and is covered by most existing laws.

The problem is that, in practice, if an illegal alien attracts the attention of “the system”, he she is likely to be exported.

If someone kills an illegal alien, they are still guilty of murder. If someone defrauds an illegal alien, they are still guilty of fraud, but the defrauded person is less likely to file charges.

FWIW, the IRS doesn’t care if you are a citizen, a legal alien, or an illegal alien. (The only questions about aliens on the form apply to NON-RESIDENT aliens.)

All they care is that you have a social security number.

[Ruby_G_Weber]

I do not hire anyone who cannot document their citizenship. An employer in my state is required to see proof of citizenship or at least a social security card. Of course, it is not the employer’s responsibility to determine if that social security card is legitimate.

That said, finding any help in the horse business is difficult at best. Finding knowlegable help is nearly impossible. The turnover rate is better than 50%, in most cases. Even if you are willing to train on the job, most entry level employees need a minimun of two years training.

As for the poster who thinks this business can generate salaries of $75,000, I’d like that poster to find the money for that kind of salary in my business. Most horse business owners don’t gross that much in a year.

As far as “illegals” being underpaid, I don’t know too many in that category. Most stable help makes a decent salary (better than McDonald’s), are provided with housing both at home and at shows, and are paid a per diem at shows, often $30.00 or more a day. In other words, they have very few expenses.

In my experience, it is not the long hours at shows that makes the job difficult (my employees work from 7:00 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. with a lunch break at home), it’s the physical labor. It’s hard work!

I do not condone the use of illegal aliens but I can certainly see where a stable owner might be tempted.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Janet, the IRS accepts these two documents as proof of citizenship on their I-9 form. There are several categories of documents, and combinations thereof, that they accept, the most common being SS card and driver’s license.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are we talking about INS or IRS?

I thought the I-9 was an INS form. I still don’t believe the IRS cares.

[DMK]

“A or (B and C)” is the winner

[Cactuskate]

I know from a business standpoint all employees no matter what their national origin must fill out an I-9 form. This form is available through the Immigration Dept. If an inspection is done on your I-9 records, not your payroll records just I-9, and you do not have a proper form for each employee on your premises there is, last I knew, a $2500.00 fine per violation.

I do not know if grooms fall under an agricultural employee status or not. I know some rules are different in those cases.

Granting there is alot of compensation that is dealt with on a “cash” basis and does not go through the payroll withholding standards. To my knowledge this is still illegal. Anyone have better knowledge of the employment laws?

[Caruso]

Getting a work visa and green card is significantly different depending on what country you come from - far easier for Hondurans or Guatemalans than for Mexicans. (Or at least this was the case a couple of years ago.) People from areas of political unrest qualify under political refuge status - which includes Eastern Europe as well as Central America and other places.

According to one report I read, there was a great deal of strife on some of the California race tracks between the Mexican and Guatemalan grooms - as the Mexicans resented the ease with which the Guatemalans were able to get work visas.

I thought the fines were more in the $50,000 range - upped a few years ago. But, with the labor shortage right now, they may have lowered them. I do know that it is YOUR responsibility, as an employee, to PROVE to your employer that you are a US citizen by physically SHOWING your birth certificate, passport, or a couple of other items.

As a citizen, I find this absolutely INTOLERABLE. Why should I have to prove who and what I am because THEY (they government) is worried about illegals. The cost to businesses of this policy is totally off-the-walls - and totally ridiculous.

Sorry about my venting, but it really bothers me.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

Well, whatever else they are, I think we can all agree they aren’t naive… SS cards can only be issued to US citizens, as proven by a birth certificate AND legally admitted aliens with permission to work in the US (as provenby INS documentation).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just made my own point. SS cards are issued to non-citizens. They are certainly issued to permanent resident aliens, and people with work visas. They MIGHT be proof of “right to work” (though I doubt it- if you have a temporary work visa I don’t think your social security card evaporates when the visa expires). But they certainly are not proof of citizenship.

[Janet]

OK, that makes sense.

That says that the INS is willing to accept the drivers license as proof of identity (it has a picture) and an original SS card (unrestricted) as proof of “right to work”. NOT as proof of citizenship.

I hadn’t realized that there was more than one kind of social security card.

[jumpcrew]

Thanks Kate

[heelsdown]

Yes, the employee is obligated to provide proof to the employer with documentation that they are legally able to work. The employers are obligated to demand documention from their employees that they are legal, the employers are the ones who get fined. But who’s fooling who?

And when was the last time that an illegal alien took the pains to get a social security number when they know darn well that they are legally supposed to be working anyway?!

Many of my “alien” friends who do not work in this country have obtained ss #s only because of bank accounts and such.

[NinaL_aka_Chrissy]

For the most part a Social Security card is not considered to be an acceptable form of identification.

My last two positions required that I be bonded. (I have a Series 7 brokerage license and worked for a financial consultants form. I now fix computers in a bank). In both cases I had to present two of the following three proofs of identification and citizenship: birth certificate, driver’s license, passport. The directions for bonding clearly stated that a Social Security card was not acceptable.

As Janet points out a resident alien may possess a Social Security card. This was certainly true with the Canadians that the financial planning firm had as customers. Indeed, they were earning S.S. benefits and will, presumably, receive a monthly S.S. check if it happens to exist in the future.

I would imagine that a Social Security card coupled with another form identification could be used as basis for employment. Certainly you could query the Social Security office regarding the status of the person associated with the number.

Nina (I just LOVE being fingerprinted)

[Philly]

Pat -
I remember that day at Lake Placid. I was much younger and inexperienced and had to have my trainer explain to me what was going on and why were a lot of the grooms hiding in trailers at the back of the grounds!

[heelsdown]

I’m not sure if the laws are different from business to business, but I know that in many businesses if you are caught with an illegal alien working for you it is a $10,000 fine, right off the bat. I heard a rumor that a few years ago, at WEF the announcers would use a code word to warn people that INS was on the premises.

I respect the fact that most of the illegal aliens are hard working, skilled people who are motivated by a desire to help their families back home. However that fact is, because they are not working legally they are usually underpaid and without benefits. These workers have no venue to complain, they are essentially paid slaves. The owners of these barns are, in many instances, exploiting these people.

These are often the same barns full of horses that all cost more than the average house, that charge a very pretty penny to board, train and show with them. Yet they seek a bargain in the most important link in the chain, those directly responsible for the horses care. And while I do not doubt that many of these workers are highly educated about the horses they care for I wonder what happens in the case of an emergency, when a horse colics and an English speaker is not there. How does that work in the emergency call situation?

I suspect that there are many US citizens who would be interested in these jobs, for a proper wage, and with proper benefits, but as the system stands now (basically poorly enforced by INS)the barns get away with hiring illegal aliens and paying them substandard wages. And if one of them gets hurt or killed, what then? That’s exploitation.

Don’t you think that if McDonalds could get away with hiring illegal aliens to man the burger grills for a few dollars less an hour they would? They wouldn’t have to pay them minimum wage, just enough to keep them there, wouldn’t have to pay SSI or Unemployment insurance or all those other things that businesses have to do. Of course they would, but they can’t too high profile, and their competitors would likely blow the whistle on them because if everyone else is following the rules they should too.

There are people who fought long and hard in our country for safe workplaces, decent wages and working hours, and benfits for those workers. Their motivation was not to exclude foreign workers, it was to ensure a fair standard for all workers. The corporations would be happy to pay as little as possible and not have to worry about safety standards etc… much less expensive that way.

The hiring of illegal aliens endangers the illegal aliens themselves. If there are truly no legal workers who will do these jobs there are steps that companies can take to hire foreigners, but there are rules and standards of pay, benefits etc… commensurate with what a legal American would earn.

I think that paying sub standard wages without workers compensation etc… to illegal aliens verges on paid slavery.

[NYHICA]

To open a new can of worms, what about the subject of I.D.'s (drivers licenses, state ID cards & SS cards) being obtained thru illegal channels so that these grooms can earn a living. What is the difference between that and the many, many a minor that does the same thing so they can go out drinking & partying with their friends. Is anyone going to tell me that they have never known anyone to do that? How many of you have done it yourself?