“Grooms” got me thinking. What exactly are the legal penalties and legal liability for hiring illegal aliens?. What if they get hurt on the job? Can an illegal sue? What is the total liability, especially when they are paid in cash with no fed-state taxes, insurance witheld, etc???
A social security card, a drivers license, etc,- none of these are proof of citizenship.
I have had a SS card since I was 6, and a drivers license since I was 16. Neither have anything to do with citizenship- I have had a green card (and this is long enough ago that my fiirst one actually WAS green) since I was 5.
I don’t remember whether my parents had to show my green card to apply for the SS card, but I think not, since anyone who opens a US bank account (regardless of where they live and work) has to get a SS card.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
You just made my own point. SS cards are issued to non-citizens. They are certainly issued to permanent resident aliens, and people with work visas. They MIGHT be proof of “right to work” (though I doubt it- if you have a temporary work visa I don’t think your social security card evaporates when the visa expires). But they certainly are not proof of citizenship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, I believe they are only proof of your right and/or obligation to contribute to the social security pension fund. However, according to the Social Security administration, they are only issued to citizens and people who have been legally granted a right to work in the United States. Resident aliens who do not have a right to work, but need a SS number for bank account purposes, etc. are issued an ITIN card, which probably has the same number config as your SS#, but does not confer the user to any rights to the pension fund (as if it will be there in another 20 years).
Hmm, insurance, y’all actually have that stuff? Must be nice. Seriously, the place I’m at now does have Workman’s Comp, and our stall guy, my darling Walter, is legal, so he’s OK.
One place I worked for hired a mix of American girls and English girls (legal and not-so-legal) The Americans got health coverage in the beginning, but he didn’t carry a Workmans policy, he just told us to lie and say we weren’t at work! I guess either way he paid for it. Later on the health plan he had us on got to be too expensive so he dropped it and picked up a Workman’s policy. If any of the English girls got hurt, he took them to the hospital and paid out of pocket.
County hospitals? Please, I had a quick trip through Hunterdon Medical Center at the beginning of the summer and they didn’t take ANY ID from me. I could have said I was Susan B. Anthony and I think they would have believed me. I doubt too many boys have been sent home just because they got hurt and went to get treatment.
I agree that illegal aliens deserve rights etc. the same as legal workers. The other unfortunate situation is that the McDonald’s worker making minimum wage is often below the poverty line and gets no healthcare benefits, much like the illegal worker.
I wish these lower paid people would unionize for their own good. It’s a shame to see anybody work a 40 hour week and have to worry bout basics like rent or food. If I were a CEO of a McDonalds, or a trainer at a farm, I’d be embarassed to know that my employees could qualify for foodstamps.
Out of curiosity, how much do these grooms make on average…if paid under the table, they may be better off than working at Mc Donalds.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Caruso:
[B]As a citizen, I find this absolutely INTOLERABLE. Why should I have to prove who and what I am because THEY (they government) is worried about illegals. The cost to businesses of this policy is totally off-the-walls - and totally ridiculous.
Sorry about my venting, but it really bothers me.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Surely Caruso you can find things that bother you more 
? You should be worried about the illegals as well as the government, because the illegals might be taking your job. Perhaps you say you don’t want to work at any job an illegal would take? Well, surprise, they’re not all illiterate grooms and lawn boys. Many asians are come here capable of much more than that. If they had a green card, or false id, they could easily take the position you want.
Secondly, it costs the employer nothing to ask you for your ID and SS#. They’re going to get it anyway for a background check or when you’re hired for tax form purposes.
Instead of letting it bother you, why not consider it an honor to present the documents that prove you are an American citizen?
yes there is a code word at shows for INS, I think essentially the announcer says Mr. (so and so) is on the grounds. When INS is gone, a similar announcement is made. Nearly shut Lake Placid down for a good part of a day a few years back.
To Janet, yes I meant INS and they call it “proof of citizenship” on the I-9 form - can’t comment beyond that.
To Moose re: insurance - when I worked, no one other than some of the ultra rich (Erdenheim) barns had insurance, and I’m not even sure they did. I had my front teeth knocked out by a lead shank snap when a horse pulled back - my wealthy employer refused to pay my dental bill and my dad had to ante up. I know most of my peers were insurance-less - too expensive for an individual.I don’t think many (any?) barns carried Worker’s Comp due to high expense and I think they may be exempted under agriculture laws. Many barns paid their help as “casual labor” also, which meant no taxes, ins., etc. I don’t know if the laws have tightened up since then, but there were plenty of loopholes back then and no benefits for us.
[This message has been edited by lauriep (edited 10-17-2000).]
You can buy a CA ID on the streets of Hollywood for $25 - $50, or at least you could back when I were a kid 
which was not too long ago. Plus they were real- one guy works in the DMV one on the street. SSC are even easier because they are basically a piece of paper with a number typed on it and lists of available numbers etc are apparently fairly easy to come by as are color copiers, plus who checks the no.? I know of at least two barn owners who had long term employees evantually tell them that their papers were fake. In both cases they were able to go to the INS or whoever with a letter of intent and get a VISA for the employees. BUT otherwise no-one ever noticed and these barns actually paid legally so just think if people didn’t ask too hard…
Quote of heelsdown;
“However that fact is, because they are not working legally they are usually underpaid and without benefits. These workers have no venue to complain, they are essentially paid slaves.”
This is something I have yet to have explained to me, “What part of ILLEGAL are we not grasping here?” If I illegally drive my car I am ticketed or jailed. If I illegally take something from a store, I am arrested for shoplifting. If I illegally approach someone with a gun and ask for money, I am arrested and taken to jail.
So why are the standards and benefits and rights so different for people that have not gone through the immigration channels and are in our country ILLEGALLY? It is not like it is some hidden condition. We actually call them ILLEGAL aliens.
[This message has been edited by Cactuskate (edited 10-15-2000).]
you all have way too much time on your hands! i know alot of grooms who absolutly love their jobs! what other job can you start when you want, take a two hour siesta, work for a few more hours and have a house (for themselves and their family),most get a car and other expences paid for, and four to six weeks vacation with guarentee of a job when they return! believe me if anything ever happens to those guys the employors always take care of them. give me a break; spend a few weeks on the other side of the stall door and you’ll see these guys wouldn’t change a thing!!
Janet, the IRS accepts these two documents as proof of citizenship on their I-9 form. There are several categories of documents, and combinations thereof, that they accept, the most common being SS card and driver’s license.
Janet, P.S. - I also think that the reason the INS accepts these two documents, in combination, is because technically each requires a birth certificate to be issued, with exceptions mentioned above. I think states are pretty uniform in requiring a birth cert. to get your license…
The point is that the grooms who are illegal aliens have no legal recourse, if they do speak up they will likely be deported! At least the fryer cook at McDonalds who gets burned by hot grease will receive workers compensation.
The greater point is that with all the big dollars in this sport (and I’m talking about the show barns with the horses worth six figures) it boggles my mind that they cannot afford to hire legal, qualified help! You can have the most state of the art barn, the best bedding, best footing, best turn out, best of everything, yet so many of them seem to hire help that are not legal to work in this country (and work for below standard wages), who may or may not know all they should about the horse.
If the trainers and barn owners feel that there are no legal Americans available to work then they should petition INS for dispensation and enact benefit programs to protect these workers.
Personally I think it’s about time the trainers themselves rethought the whole system. Grooms aren’t making any more than they were ten years ago, while more money is being spent on every other aspect of horses than ever before, somehow the groom is thought to be disposable.
Even the groom profiled in Practical Horseman, name escapes me now, who works for Peter Leone was only making $800 a week and she is likely at the apex of income earning. With her longevity, knowledge, skills etc… she should be closer to 75,000 a year, and her employer could certainly afford it.
I’m not saying that all grooms should earn that much but one in her position, working for a farm that charges 2500 a month for board, should certainly be in this range.
Yes, of course there are the farm owners that indeed take good care of there “temporary migrant workers”. That is because they are aware of how hard it is to find good quality help that will work and work hard. Lets face it mucking stalls is not the most glamorous job, but it is necessary.
Idealy it would be nice to find people that were knowledgable about horses, honest, capable of the job, able to think for themselves and know the difference when they shouldn’t, carry no previous baggage, able to work for very little (hidden indepentant wealth), able to work long hours (lack of a social life) and carry a pager just in case. Pretty tall order here but you get my point, sometimes when you find this type of person a SS# doesn’t seem quite so important.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Janet, the IRS accepts these two documents as proof of citizenship on their I-9 form. There are several categories of documents, and combinations thereof, that they accept, the most common being SS card and driver’s license.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then the IRS is being very naive- as I have both a SS card and a drivers license, but I am NOT a US citizen. I am a permanent resident alien.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Janet, P.S. - I also think that the reason the INS accepts these two documents, in combination, is because technically each requires a birth certificate to be issued, with exceptions mentioned above. I think states are pretty uniform in requiring a birth cert. to get your license…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, but my birth certificate shows that I was born OUTSIDE the US. There is NOTHING on my license that is any different from the drivers license for someone born in the US.
So yes, having a drivers license may demonstrate that I have a birth certificate (though I think you can substitute some other documentation), but not WHERE I was born.
(It is a LOOONG time ago, but I think we actually used my green card rather than my birth certificate as proof of identity when I got my first license, but again, there is nothing on the license to indicate where I was born, or what my citizenship status is.)
It varies from state to state what route you can take to be a groom. It is very hard to work in the states if you are Canadian, it is easier if you are from Mexico. There are provisions for Mexican temporary migrant workers through the Ag. Dept.>However there is a time limit on those visa’s and they have to go back to there country (so is stated).
As for Canadians the best way is to have applied for a student visa. But you have to have everything set up before you can come down and again there is a time limit, which can be extended.
As far as liability goes for injury, illegal aliens can still sue, Portia help me with this part. I think it is a cival suit.
Penelties are usually fines of up to $2500.00, but don’t quote me and deportation. With restrictions on travel back to the states.
So basically who ever you work for as an Alien has you by the end of the rug and could pull it at anytime. Not a nice way to live.
If you get hurt sure you could sue, but you get deported and fined. Double edge sword.
[This message has been edited by JRG (edited 10-15-2000).]
I read an earlier post on Peter Leone’s groom making $800.00 a week - I would love to make that kind of money! (and I have a college degree).
You have to love being a groom - if someone would match my pay at this #$%@ desk job to care for their horses, shovel poop and work a 14 hour day, I’d start today and never complain.
Maybe grooms need to unionize or something.
There are more rewards than just financial ones, and if they’d up the pay to a living wage (I assume Leone’s groom is well paid compared to other grooms!), they’d have people like me knocking down their doors.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Then the IRS is being very naive- as I have both a SS card and a drivers license, but I am NOT a US citizen. I am a permanent resident alien.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, whatever else they are, I think we can all agree they aren’t naive… SS cards can only be issued to US citizens, as proven by a birth certificate AND legally admitted aliens with permission to work in the US (as provenby INS documentation).
