"Leggy" & Modern = A Better Dressage Horse?

[quietann]

[QUOTE=jdeboer01;5678549]
Just musing here…

The best gymnasts are usually small in stature with shortish legs.

Iberian horses excel at the collected movements, but don’t pull off the extensions as well, nor have as much suspension.

Totilas is, I believe, 17h but is not as rectangular in form as is usually desired.

Hmmmmmm :-)[/QUOTE]

A friend who met Totilas up close and personal says he’s 16.1 or 16.2 at the most. And very well-balanced and well-conformed.

There are lots of us riding dressage horses who do better at collection and don’t have that huge moment of “airtime” suspension, like Morgans, Iberians, Arabs etc.

[jdeboer01]

[QUOTE=quietann;5679049]
A friend who met Totilas up close and personal says he’s 16.1 or 16.2 at the most. And very well-balanced and well-conformed.[/QUOTE]

Most literature on him gives a height of 1.75 meters, which = a hair over 17h. Someone who posts on this board (Shooting Star Farm?) has seen him up close too, and confirmed he truly is that tall. His perfect proportions, along with the fact that Edward Gal has very long legs, may make him appear shorter. I realize that sometimes height is exaggerated, but claiming a 16.1h horse is 17h would be lying.

[Waterwitch]

@not again;5678493

A horse with a narrow base and a high center of gravity is very difficult to train, let alone compete getting high scores, at the grand prix level. The balance point is too difficult to stabilize through the myriad of half halts and changes of direction and gait.
I say this from experience, not theory.

And that makes perfect sense. But Kyzteke was asking why the trend might exist (presumably at the breeding shows) and I was offering a hypothesis for why it might…the biomechanics may be part of what creates the visual appearance of “lightness” that some find beautiful to watch…but that is not functional in the ridden dressage horse (particularly when the traits are exaggerated).

[Donella]

Obviously the longer the leg, the harder it will be for the horse to get that leg underneath themselves and “sit” once they reach a higher level of collection…this is just basic body mechanics

See but that is not true. When someone says they want to increase length of leg, they are not talking about the hind legs. They want the forearm of the horse to be longer than the hind legs so that, relatively speaking, the horse is naturally higher at the elbow than he is at the stifle (the definition of “uphill”). If the hind end is well conformed and the front leg puts the horse in an uphill balance then you would assume that the horse would struggle less to shift it’s weight to the hind end and, more importantly, raise the front end (collection).

It makes sense to me though of course I don’t think extremes are ever really good. Breeds that are traditionally built downhill are built that way primarily because the front leg is much shorter than the hind ie cutting bred quarter horse or big heavy draft. Both breeds work on their front ends. They are built this way because it is a functional form. The cow horse needs to get down in the front to stay with the calf, the draft horse pulls itself with the front leg. Form to funtion. The dressage horse, on the other hand, needs to work more in a state where the front end is higher relative to the hind end. It’s no different than breeding horses with really well set on necks, strong hind ends with good angles behind, good bone ect ect. Dressage horses should be born relatively uphill.

[jdeboer01]

Can anyone explain to me why a ‘rectangular’ form is more desirable than a ‘square’ form? Because it seems to me that a more square form would have an easier time getting the hind legs underneath and finding the center of gravity.

It’s easier to lift one side of 50lb square box than one side of a 50lb rectangular box. Especially when you’re trying to lift the heavier side!

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Not the answer you are looking for, but I can tell you we had a very difficult time saddle fitting a very square/short backed mare for one thing. Too much loin pressure with a normal saddle. She also lacked elasticity and any swing through her back, but I don’t know if that was due to mechanics of her form.

[Kyzteke]

@Donella;5679189

Breeds that are traditionally built downhill are built that way primarily because the front leg is much shorter than the hind ie cutting bred quarter horse or big heavy draft. Both breeds work on their front ends. They are built this way because it is a functional form. The cow horse needs to get down in the front to stay with the calf, the draft horse pulls itself with the front leg. Form to funtion.

You make some excellent points, but I do have to correct you on the cutting horse thing. They do NOT “work off their front end”. Their primary weight bearing is on the hind, just like dressage. If their weight was on the front, they could not make those lightening fast turns to keep up with the cow.

It is a simple fact of Nature (or Horsemanship) that any riding horse who is required to move fluidly and/or quickly must be in a state of collection.

And collection means they must be working off their hindquarter. Even the lowliest working ranch horse is trained to do this – upper level dressage horses just use a higher state of collection.

NOT that I am real experienced in these sports and admittedly it is way OT, but to my eye examples of horses not being collected would be WP horses & ASB “big lick” sort of horses.

[Kyzteke]

@jdeboer01;5679226

Can anyone explain to me why a ‘rectangular’ form is more desirable than a ‘square’ form? Because it seems to me that a more square form would have an easier time getting the hind legs underneath and finding the center of gravity.

It’s easier to lift one side of 50lb square box than one side of a 50lb rectangular box. Especially when you’re trying to lift the heavier side!

I’m just guessing on this – but my guess is that horses are naturally rectangular (not square), so the standard of conformation sprang from that. But just a guess…

[Kyzteke]

@siegi b.;5679033

Go look at Bretton Woods for an example of long legs.

http://www.platinum-stud.com/bretton-woods.html

Excellent example! Apparently he’s the new hot boy. Note that he is being billed as “The Next Totilas!”

I really respect KWPN and certainly this boy has the pedigree to do it, but if I had to bet money, I would bet this horse will not be a brilliant GP competitor and will struggle to stay sound…I guess we will see…

[bloomingtonfarm]

[QUOTE=jdeboer01;5679226]
Can anyone explain to me why a ‘rectangular’ form is more desirable than a ‘square’ form? Because it seems to me that a more square form would have an easier time getting the hind legs underneath and finding the center of gravity.

It’s easier to lift one side of 50lb square box than one side of a 50lb rectangular box. Especially when you’re trying to lift the heavier side![/QUOTE]

Because they are more athletic. They have more scope and it is easier for them to collect and extend. Square horses are better for collection but it is more difficult for them to extend. It is the same for the jumpers, they have to have the capability to shorten and lenghten their stride to adjust to the jumps. Being rectangular make it easier for them.

[FatCatFarm]

@Kyzteke;5678635

Of course you are right – but don’t you think if the body gets more muscular the legs LOOK shorter? And I was just looking for conformation pics of more “leggy” type of WBs.

Ideas?

Perhaps Oskar II who was successfully shown to Gran Prix level in dressage. Interesting discussion.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.americantrakehner.com/stallions/Pix/OskarII.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.americantrakehner.com/stallions/oskarii.asp&usg=__-Dx0R3wM5lsIVMxP8bCLK5riJvE=&h=336&w=400&sz=36&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=4gTwofHnEPryuM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=142&ei=omcDToKLD-u20AGa7Zj8DQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DOskar%2BII%2Bstallion%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rlz%3D1T4RNSN_enUS390US390%26biw%3D1020%26bih%3D528%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=381&vpy=71&dur=2048&hovh=206&hovw=245&tx=99&ty=98&page=1&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0&biw=1020&bih=528

[Tasker]

[QUOTE=jdeboer01;5679150]
… but claiming a 16.1h horse is 17h would be lying.[/QUOTE]

:lol: As an aside :lol: there was a very well known farm that imported a stallion and then later sold him back to the continent. While he was in Europe (both before and after import) he was advertised as 168 cm. While he was Stateside - his ads listed him at 17.1 hands. I saw him in person multiple times and he was a smidgeon over 16 hands when relaxed and hanging out. If he was puffed up and on his toes, he was closer to 16.2. And that’s just one that I can think of straight away!

People fudge horse height all the time. :yes:

[FatCatFarm]

@Tasker;5679594

People fudge horse height all the time. :yes:

Yes, they do and it really irritates me as it’s a pet peeve of mine. :mad: Most often the horse is shorter than advertised; rarely taller, but it happens. I have driven two hours out of my way to look at a 16.2 hd horse only to get there and have it be 15.2. :o Grrrrrr!

[not_again]

Can anyone explain to me why a ‘rectangular’ form is more desirable than a ‘square’ form?

One of the key needs for the top level is flexibility left and right. For that I have been trained to check the distance between the last rib and the hip. “Square” horses, i. e. short coupled, tend to be narrow in that space, so they have a harder time in the strong half passes trot and canter. When a shorter horse gets tense and shortens its, top line, like a long-legged shallow-bodied horse, the center of gravity rises and becomes unstable.

Most importantly, for the top level, a horse must have a superior canter coupled with a very elastic and also strong sacrum/loin connection. That involves having enough length as well. Shorter horses can be strong but not as often elastic enough for the demands of grand prix.

[leilatigress]

I’ve always thought Toto was rather balanced and not leggy at all. I’d like to shave off about 4 inches of neck (length wise) but that is a purely personal thing for me. I Love the overall look of Toto as he really does look balanced and well put together. But I am just as likely to swoon over the tall and leggy. OTTB Powerful Storm from the Finger Lakes Listings http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g276/soleal/leo4.jpg In his listing pictures all you saw was legs. He still makes my heart go all mushy when I see pics of him and the phrase “He’s got legs and he knows how to use em” plays in my mind. Now Toto is a WB and Storm is a TB and comparing the two is not fair to either but I cannot think of a single WB GP big name horse that inspires the long and leggy comment.

[Kyzteke]

@FatCatFarm;5679425

Perhaps Oskar II who was successfully shown to Gran Prix level in dressage. Interesting discussion.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.americantrakehner.com/stallions/Pix/OskarII.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.americantrakehner.com/stallions/oskarii.asp&usg=__-Dx0R3wM5lsIVMxP8bCLK5riJvE=&h=336&w=400&sz=36&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=4gTwofHnEPryuM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=142&ei=omcDToKLD-u20AGa7Zj8DQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DOskar%2BII%2Bstallion%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rlz%3D1T4RNSN_enUS390US390%26biw%3D1020%26bih%3D528%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=381&vpy=71&dur=2048&hovh=206&hovw=245&tx=99&ty=98&page=1&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0&biw=1020&bih=528

Good example. I didn’t read the info, but do you have any idea of how long he competed in dressage and how well he did?

Just data-wise, I’d be curious.

[FatCatFarm]

@Kyzteke;5679721

Good example. I didn’t read the info, but do you have any idea of how long he competed in dressage and how well he did?

Just data-wise, I’d be curious.

Here you go: http://www.americantrakehner.com/Results/horseResults.asp?ID=OSB-E-S351

[columbus]

http://www.aquafarms.net/Oskar.html
When I measured OskarII in this video a few times he doesn’t look square. He IS very leggy and lighter in the body. I think many horses become more rectangular as they mature and you need to consider that many dressage stallions have their pictures proliferate when they are young and they use those light elegant pictures for the stallions advertising life but it may not reflect his final mature type. When we glorify leggy feminine pretty graceful stallions and penalize muscular masculine rectangular stallions stuff happens. PatO

[back_in_the_saddle]

Go look at Bretton Woods for an example of long legs.

Ok… Hope I don’t offend anyone, but I would never purposely try to create a horse like this. Too extreme for my taste.

[Kyzteke]

@FatCatFarm;5680169

Here you go: http://www.americantrakehner.com/Results/horseResults.asp?ID=OSB-E-S351

Looks like he went from PSG to GP – isn’t that abit unusual? Or no?

He had a 2 year career as a GP horse w/just 7 shows total in those 2 yrs. But he did pretty well in that time span.

I do love the Russian horses…they used to be a real force in International dressage (the Russians)…I wonder if they will ever come back.

Ok, waaaaayyy OT.