"Leggy" & Modern = A Better Dressage Horse?

[Kyzteke]

Ok – horse breeding has trends & fads like every thing else.

Currently everyone wants “leggy”. In the past, the horses who were able to do the GP movements were NOT leggy (think Lippies, etc).

Obviously the longer the leg, the harder it will be for the horse to get that leg underneath themselves and “sit” once they reach a higher level of collection…this is just basic body mechanics.

So – are breeders shooting themselves in the foot by doing this? Will it result in more “shuffling” sort of passages/piaffes?

Other than a pretty look, what does a longer leg bring to performance?

I’ve been wondering about this for a long time – love to hear the thoughts of others…

[fannie_mae]

“Obviously the longer the leg, the harder it will be for the horse to get that leg underneath themselves and “sit” once they reach a higher level of collection…this is just basic body mechanics.”
exactly what you are saying!
this explains it pretty much, i think: http://www.hippologi.com/langbeinigengl.htm

[Kyzteke]

@fannie mae;5676083

“Obviously the longer the leg, the harder it will be for the horse to get that leg underneath themselves and “sit” once they reach a higher level of collection…this is just basic body mechanics.”
exactly what you are saying!
this explains it pretty much, i think: http://www.hippologi.com/langbeinigengl.htm

Interesting article. And, except for the part about riding horses being a fairly recent “discovery” (since horses were being ridden as far back as ancient Greece and probably before that), I agree with what Sabine has to say.

So – how come everyone is on the “long legs” bandwagon?

I mean, it wouldn’t be the first time breeders got lead astray by fashion over function (like tiny feet on QH’s, fine bones & no brains on Arabs, fast but frail with TBs, etc), but I thought the whole point of WBs WAS function…

Will we see a future where you have “halter” WBs who win in hand shows, but stall out at upper level dressage, and then “performance” WBs who actually excel at the sport?

Wouldn’t that be a shame…

[Graymaresrule]

There’s a reason I like Irish Draught Sport Horses
https://picasaweb.google.com/carolp3231/Sophie#5467746028727381890

[stolensilver]

I think breeders who don’t ride have a disadvantage when trying to plan future foals. The qualities needed in a horse to get to the upper levels of dressage are often very different from the qualities needed to sell a foal. But of course there’s a whole lot more money in selling foals than there is in running a young horse on and backing and training them and selling them as an under-saddle prospect. So what is a breeder to do? Especially when they don’t have first hand feel and knowledge of what a PSG+ horse actually feels like and acts like under saddle and even more importantly what that horse looked like and how they acted from foal to mature horse.

Someone asked if there is a risk of fashion breeding happening in warmbloods. I think its not just a risk, its already happening. There are some enormously powerful marketing machines in Europe who manipulate the market to promote their own bloodlines. When it is pointed out that these bloodlines have produced very few dressage horses who are getting to the upper levels somehow it doesn’t matter because they have got youngstock doing well in young horse classes.

As Kyzteke says biomechanically long legs are a mistake if you are looking for the ability to collect and not strain the tendons and ligaments in the legs. As Sabine says in her article long legs are not proven to improve performance in sport. Yet they are sought after and prized.

Its a strange world isn’t it?

[TKR]

I brought up this subject some months before, I believe on this board. Just wondering if the pendulum has swung too far in one direction – sort of an over-compensation from the burly, heavy or shorter-legged wb’s of the past. The willowy look is certainly pretty but when it gets out of proportion it looks more like stilts. I asked before if the inspectors would not quell this as they see it going too overboard and begin choosing stallion prospects in particular who are not extreme. It is certainly the new “buzz” word in advertising it seems – as the size of bone was at one time (and still is for some). I am a fan of the more refined types and prefer a more leggy horse than a shorter legged, but it still needs to be in proportion – the structure should carry the mass and the body should have enough depth to balance out the legs. Length in the forearm is certainly preferable than more length in the cannon bone, which is where that stalky look comes from IMO.
PennyG

[Graymaresrule]

SOME Irish Draught and IDSH breeders are trying to preserve and use the traditional ID type while using the ID to breed IDSH’s. It’s probably cost the ID and IDSH’s some current popularity but I believe the traditional type is still there, and I’m not sure the continental WB breeds can say the same.

I would like to think that an Irish farmer from 60 years ago could look at a present day ID and say “Yup, that’s an ID”. I’m not sure a German farmer could say the same.

Market pressures are very hard to resist. And once the traditional type is gone it’s darn hard to get back.

[Waterwitch]

Theoretically, the higher the center of gravity and the more narrow the base of support, the more unstable the mass. The lower the center of gravity and the more broad the base of support, the more stable the mass.

Therefore one might hypothesize that the leggy, narrow horse is potentially more agile/quicker off the ground because a change in balance is more likely biomechanically and the horse has to be more reactive/quicker to changes in his balance if he is to remain upright…?

[not_again]

A horse with a narrow base and a high center of gravity is very difficult to train, let alone compete getting high scores, at the grand prix level. The balance point is too difficult to stabilize through the myriad of half halts and changes of direction and gait.
I say this from experience, not theory.

[Kyzteke]

@Waterwitch;5678437

Theoretically, the higher the center of gravity and the more narrow the base of support, the more unstable the mass. The lower the center of gravity and the more broad the base of support, the more stable the mass.

Therefore one might hypothesize that the leggy, narrow horse is potentially more agile/quicker off the ground because a change in balance is more likely biomechanically and the horse has to be more reactive/quicker to changes in his balance if he is to remain upright…?

Well, that sounds pretty good in theory;).

But in real life all the sporst that require really quick manuevers tend to lean towards smaller horses: cutting, polo and many speed events.

Because upper level dressage requires so much strength in the hindquarters/loin/hocks, and the ability to really “sit”, I can’t see where narrow and long would do it.

No, I suspect this is more about fashion and less about function…

[back_in_the_saddle]

What is totilas?

Is he modern w/longer legs or old style w/shorter legs?

[jdeboer01]

Just musing here…

The best gymnasts are usually small in stature with shortish legs.

Iberian horses excel at the collected movements, but don’t pull off the extensions as well, nor have as much suspension.

Totilas is, I believe, 17h but is not as rectangular in form as is usually desired.

Hmmmmmm

[back_in_the_saddle]

How wide is Totilas?

[Kyzteke]

@back in the saddle;5678553

How wide is Totilas?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/moorlandstotilas2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/totilas.shtml&usg=__z0rGzVLPlYmypA3TxJvlubrzIis=&h=565&w=840&sz=561&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=gkQqFyilhDoFzM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=173&ei=WpMCTv_QFLPSiALikrCpBQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dtotilas%2Bstallion%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DjkE%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D540%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=395&vpy=240&dur=1461&hovh=184&hovw=274&tx=170&ty=87&page=1&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:0&biw=1366&bih=540

He looks to be a pretty substanial horse and NOT particularly long-legged. Per my totally unscientific method of measuring him in this pic, he is actually built pretty close to square, but then, so are many Lippies & such.

He is very well balanced (to my eye) with obviously strong back/shoulder/loin, but his legs are not real long. From this pic, I would not call him “leggy”, would you?

[back_in_the_saddle]

He’s not leggy. Can you find a picture of a leggy horse for comparison?

I don’t think I’d call him short legged either though.

[Kyzteke]

@back in the saddle;5678587

He’s not leggy. Can you find a picture of a leggy horse for comparison?

I don’t think I’d call him short legged either though.

No, I would call him quite balanced conformationally speaking – I’m sure that’s one reason he’s so good at what he does.

I thought about using a photo of QB for the “leggy”, but it’s not really fair comparing a young stallion to a finished GP horse of several years like Toto – so much of their conformation has been shaped by the gymnastic training they’ve received.

So – where are the long-legged GP horses?

[back_in_the_saddle]

Can’t think of his name… Anky’s Sandro Hit son?

[Hampton_Bay]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5678594]
… but it’s not really fair comparing a young stallion to a finished GP horse of several years like Toto – so much of their conformation has been shaped by the gymnastic training they’ve received…[/QUOTE]

Musculature, yes, but not the skeleton. The proportions will be the same no matter the level of training. The legs don’t get longer or shorter, nor do the back or neck. The neck might look higher-set due to more muscle by the withers, but the skeletal proportions will remain the same once the animal has finished growing.

[Kyzteke]

@Hampton Bay;5678617

Musculature, yes, but not the skeleton. The proportions will be the same no matter the level of training. The legs don’t get longer or shorter, nor do the back or neck. The neck might look higher-set due to more muscle by the withers, but the skeletal proportions will remain the same once the animal has finished growing.

Of course you are right – but don’t you think if the body gets more muscular the legs LOOK shorter? And I was just looking for conformation pics of more “leggy” type of WBs.

Ideas?

[siegi_b]

@back in the saddle;5678587

He’s not leggy. Can you find a picture of a leggy horse for comparison?

I don’t think I’d call him short legged either though.

… and that is the way it really is. The term “leggy” means different things to different people. It’s not a black and white thing - there are many degrees before you go from short to long.

Go look at Bretton Woods for an example of long legs.