Less spendy alternatives to Heiro for IR horses?

[SonnysMom]

I think the OP did answer why she thought the vet was recommending Heiro. He heard it can do good things. (See post 8). If he has more of a reason it sounds like he did not communicate that reason to the OP.

Therefore I am going to ask a few questions that I think people are trying to get answered to help the OP:

Is your horse still having IR symptoms with the Quiessence and the Vitamin E? Or does she have a condition that might be caused/contributed to by IR. If so, what are the symptoms or condition? Or did the vet as part of a routine vet visit mention that Heiro works well for IR horses so you should add that to the diet?

I think people are trying to figure out what the vet is hoping to solve by recommending it or if it was suggestion since she is IR and OP should use it even if the IR is currently controlled.

[Palm_Beach]

@JB

You stated as fact that you can’t control weight with “feeding something” and that you should get the weight off first.

No, I did not. I don’t mind you being preachy at me, but at least get the facts straight. OP is looking for a cheaper alternative to a specific supplement, and seems to be focusing on spending money day after day after day by adding something to the diet. I am simply pointing out that, if appropriate, he or she can make a one time purchase of a muzzle or slow feed net to control roughage consumption rates and maybe that will help. There is not always one solution to a problem. Maybe he or she needs both.

[Simkie]

@Palm Beach

No, I did not. I don’t mind you being preachy at me, but at least get the facts straight. OP is looking for a cheaper alternative to a specific supplement, and seems to be focusing on spending money day after day after day by adding something to the diet. I am simply pointing out that, if appropriate, he or she can make a one time purchase of a muzzle or slow feed net to control roughage consumption rates and maybe that will help. There is not always one solution to a problem. Maybe he or she needs both.

Your words, Palm Beach.

@Palm Beach

Giving the horse something to eat is not going to fix the problem if the horse is overweight.

I posted a plethora of studies that show this statement is false.

And hey, if you actually want to learn more about food being medicine, there’s always google.

BTW, I don’t think you have ANY idea about the dietary management of this horse. Entirely possible she’s already being muzzled with food restricted.

[SonnysMom]

@Palm Beach

No, I did not. I don’t mind you being preachy at me, but at least get the facts straight. OP is looking for a cheaper alternative to a specific supplement, and seems to be focusing on spending money day after day after day by adding something to the diet. I am simply pointing out that, if appropriate, he or she can make a one time purchase of a muzzle or slow feed net to control roughage consumption rates and maybe that will help. There is not always one solution to a problem. Maybe he or she needs both.

Palm Beach- I read your original statement the same way simkie did. You made it sound like Heiro was a food not a supplement. You jumped right into assuming OPs horse was fat and needed to eat less. The OP stated she is working with a vet so why would you assume that the vet has only advised supplements to address the IR symptoms but not dry lot, grazing muzzle, slow feed hay net etc…?
I was at one barn that had an IR pony. He was on a dry lot, he was not fat. He was a fit show pony. He got basic hay that was restricted and of appropriate NSC values. He still tended to be footsore occasionally. They added Heiro to his diet and the foot sore went away. So yes sometimes adding a supplement to the diet can help with IR horses symptoms.

[TWH_Girl]

Why all the bickering? Just answer the OP’s question and move on…

[Dr_Doolittle]

Thanks, TWH girl

Heiro ingredient list:

Natural Herbs: Proprietary herbal blend exclusive to HEIRO containing natural herbs:Fenugreek, ocean kelp, blue-green spirulina algae,cinnamon, ginger, willow, peppermint, milk thistle, alfalfa. No fillers, no artificial colors or preservatives.

Remission ingredient list:

Each oz of Remission contains:

• 6000 mg [B]magnesium[/B].
• 14 mg [B]chromium[/B].
• 20 mg [B]biotin[/B].
• 3000 mg methionine.
• 2150 mg lysine.
• 1200 mg [B]vitamin C[/B].
• 250 mg [B]zinc[/B].
• 40 mg niacin.

Heiro does have additional ingredients that might be hard to replicate with a homemade concoction. Mare is on an RB already, and gets a small amount of flax, along with copper and zinc (her iron is high, water and apparently forage is high in iron at this barn), and the Quiessence - so her bases may be covered re: her mineral requirements (blood test indicated all of her levels were good, just high in iron.)

The vet did a blood test last fall and she was “slightly insulin resistant” so she recommended the Heiro. (I have the paperwork somewhere but don’t remember the numbers off the top of my head.) She is an easy keeper by nature, but gets regular, moderate work and is otherwise asymptomatic. Hay is fed in a small hole net.

[JB]

If her current management keeps her asymptomatic, I’d be hesitant to rock the boat.

Blue-green algae does have some backing to support its use for a healthy/ier immune system. Fenugreek, peppermint, and ginger are good digestive aid, though I don’t know if the amount in Heiro is enough to have any real effect. Cinnamon was a big thing for a while for IR horses, but more research showed it having much less impact on horses blood sugar than originally thought, as the original extrapolation was done, iirc, from human studies. Whether that’s due to a different species, or the amount in typical supplementation, I don’t recall.

[Dr_Doolittle]

@JB

If her current management keeps her asymptomatic, I’d be hesitant to rock the boat.

Blue-green algae does have some backing to support its use for a healthy/ier immune system. Fenugreek, peppermint, and ginger are good digestive aid, though I don’t know if the amount in Heiro is enough to have any real effect. Cinnamon was a big thing for a while for IR horses, but more research showed it having much less impact on horses blood sugar than originally thought, as the original extrapolation was done, iirc, from human studies. Whether that’s due to a different species, or the amount in typical supplementation, I don’t recall.

Interesting, thanks!

Always a pleasure (and much appreciated) when you weigh in, you are both well-informed and delightful

[Palm_Beach]

@TWH Girl

Why all the bickering? Just answer the OP’s question and move on…

Seriously!

[Palm_Beach]

@Dr. Doolittle

Thanks, TWH girl

Heiro ingredient list:

Natural Herbs: Proprietary herbal blend exclusive to HEIRO containing natural herbs:Fenugreek, ocean kelp, blue-green spirulina algae,cinnamon, ginger, willow, peppermint, milk thistle, alfalfa. No fillers, no artificial colors or preservatives.

Remission ingredient list:

Each oz of Remission contains:

• 6000 mg [B]magnesium[/B].
• 14 mg [B]chromium[/B].
• 20 mg [B]biotin[/B].
• 3000 mg methionine.
• 2150 mg lysine.
• 1200 mg [B]vitamin C[/B].
• 250 mg [B]zinc[/B].
• 40 mg niacin.

Heiro does have additional ingredients that might be hard to replicate with a homemade concoction. Mare is on an RB already, and gets a small amount of flax, along with copper and zinc (her iron is high, water and apparently forage is high in iron at this barn), and the Quiessence - so her bases may be covered re: her mineral requirements (blood test indicated all of her levels were good, just high in iron.)

The vet did a blood test last fall and she was “slightly insulin resistant” so she recommended the Heiro. (I have the paperwork somewhere but don’t remember the numbers off the top of my head.) She is an easy keeper by nature, but gets regular, moderate work and is otherwise asymptomatic. Hay is fed in a small hole net.

I wouldn’t spend money on Heiro without some more concrete evidence that it will do whatever it is you want it to do. If you are worried about laminitis, it will not prevent laminitis. I know way too many horses on Quiessence, Heiro, etc who had laminitic episodes and it’s not a path you want to start down. Katy Watts is a great source for this stuff
www.safergrass.org. Too bad she doesn’t post here any longer, she was a fantastic resource.

[JB]

There is no concrete evidence that any supplement will do whatever it says it will do, or you want it to do.

The fact remains that many people have had Heiro or Remission or Quiessence or Acti-Flex 4000 or Tri-Hist or Cough-Free or any number of other supplements do exactly what they needed it to do.

And many have been disappointed. That is the very nature of supplements, because the issues you’re trying to address are often more complicated than just symptoms.

That said, I wouldn’t buy Heiro either, for this case, since there doesn’t seem to be an active issue on the current protocol. Using something as prevention is often wishful thinking and finger crossing, since we can’t do real studies to prove the negative when it comes to things like this.

[JB]

Thyro-L, which is not without risks, especially if thyroid function is normal, seems like overkill for a horse who has only tested as “slightly insulin resistant”, and no mention of whether she’s even overweight enough to warrant chemical interaction to get weight off. Not to mention, the horse is asymptomatic in the current management.

[Palm_Beach]

@JB

Thyro-L, which is not without risks, especially if thyroid function is normal, seems like overkill for a horse who has only tested as “slightly insulin resistant”, and no mention of whether she’s even overweight enough to warrant chemical interaction to get weight off. Not to mention, the horse is asymptomatic in the current management.

Thyro-L

Possible Side Effects: None if given at the correct dosage. If your horse has any abnormal signs, consult your veterinarian. If your horse experiences an allergic reaction to the medication, signs may include facial swelling, hives, scratching, sudden onset of diarrhea, shock, seizures, pale gums, cold limbs, or coma.

[Fharoah]

@Simkie

Thinking about the ingredients to this (I have another post hung up in the queue with links to studies supporting them) it might be worth a shot to try cinnamon, aspirin, and omega 3. Those are all pretty well supported in people literature. Maybe kelp and or spirulina, too? (Heiro had both.)

Dunno about quantity or ratio, though. But all those things should be fairly inexpensive, and you can play around?

Is Willow the same as aspirin?

[Simkie]

@Fharoah

Is Willow the same as aspirin?

They are very similar.

https://www.healthline.com/health/wi…atures-aspirin

[JB]

“Dosages should be individualized and animals should be monitored daily for clinical signs of hyperthyroidism or hypersensitivity.”

Especially true for horses whose thyroid is functioning perfectly well. Yes, it IS given to some horses who are morbidly obese, even in the presence of a healthy thyroid, for the sole purpose of getting that weight off asap. But it isn’t without possible risks as I said.

I’m not saying it can’t be beneficial. It absolutely can be. We don’t even know how overweight the horse is, if at all.

Side effects? One reason it’s given to racehorses is to increase their appetite.

[keatssu]

@Palm Beach

Here is a good read from UFL for managing insulin resistance. I would discuss putting the horse on Thyro-L before putting the horse on some herb or food thingy that has very questionable efficacy and is usually expensive.

Great article, thanks for the link! I am dealing with a mare newly diagnosed metabolic syndrome. She had laminitis in the spring which led to the diagnosis (labs and physical exam consistent with MS). The vet recommends management with diet and exercise, as there are no evidence based supplements for long term management. A thyroid boost for short term assistance with weight loss - particularly in a horse confined to a stall and/or prohibited from exercise due to lameness is reasonable to try, but not essential if the labs are normal.

Citing human studies as evidence for effectiveness in equines is not useful as a basis for embracing any supplement. It may suggest a possibility that some unknown dose could possibly be effective. If a supplement is started along with implementation of a diet and exercise regimen, it might seem like it is effective, but is far from scientific evidence. Also, lameness tends to get better with time as well, so a horse might seem more comfortable on a supplement, but the rest and physical recovery from the damage to the laminae is what led to improvement.

I would happily spend the money on anything that is helpful, including supplements. We are in the process of putting in a large, properly constructed dry lot for her (I will not let her stand around in mud) and the farrier bills have definitely increased, along with the vet bills.

She will get soaked hay, a ration balancer, and regular exercise. She will be allowed very limited grazing in a muzzle, only in the “safe” times of the year.

[Palm_Beach]

@keatssu

Great article, thanks for the link! I am dealing with a mare newly diagnosed metabolic syndrome. She had laminitis in the spring which led to the diagnosis (labs and physical exam consistent with MS). The vet recommends management with diet and exercise, as there are no evidence based supplements for long term management. A thyroid boost for short term assistance with weight loss - particularly in a horse confined to a stall and/or prohibited from exercise due to lameness is reasonable to try, but not essential if the labs are normal.

Welcome! Horses with metabolic conditions are at an increased risk for laminitis, and I would err on the side of caution in trying to minimize the risk. They can be so hard to manage, and if I have to spend money on something to help, I want to be sure it really helps.

[Palm_Beach]

@JB

“Dosages should be individualized and animals should be monitored daily for clinical signs of hyperthyroidism or hypersensitivity.”

Especially true for horses whose thyroid is functioning perfectly well. Yes, it IS given to some horses who are morbidly obese, even in the presence of a healthy thyroid, for the sole purpose of getting that weight off asap. But it isn’t without possible risks as I said.

I’m not saying it can’t be beneficial. It absolutely can be. We don’t even know how overweight the horse is, if at all.

Side effects? One reason it’s given to racehorses is to increase their appetite.

Most horses with suspected IR test low normal. The Thyro-L helps with weight management. And it is not used on racehorses to put weight on - it stimulates the metabolism so whatever bump up in calories they get from eating a little more they burn off via increased metabolism and activity. Bob Baffert had his whole barn on it and everyone copied him even though he had some horses drop dead. They just think it makes the horses more “up” and they perform better. No science behind it and plenty of dead horses, but some trainers still buy it by the case. Shame on the vets who sell it to them.

[JB]

@Palm Beach

Most horses with suspected IR test low normal. The Thyro-L helps with weight management.

I know that IR horses can test low to low normal, but do you have a cite stating most do?

And it is not used on racehorses to put weight on

I didn’t say it was used to put weight on. I said it was used to stimulate appetite (so they don’t lose (too much) weight).

So that IS a known side effect, and not something we want to induce in the typically easy keepers without a very good reason (ie a sluggish thyroid, or morbid weight that needs to some off asap)