Samwerner- what a LOVELY boy!
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6696177]
My mare is a bit weak behind - along with her Arabian intelligence, eagerness to please, refinement, and high energy, she got the Arabian hind end - a bit level in the croup, and she could have a better loin connection. (…) But if the foal has a better hind end and loin then my mare, but also has my mare’s work ethic and eagerness to please, it could be a super dressage horse. :D[/QUOTE]
Part of what has to happen to help make Arabians more desirable in sport horse breeding is to prove that Arabians exist that have strongly structured hindquarters, strong loins and correct L-S placement, good saddle position, etc. and work to show that these traits can be bred forward consistently. IMO, “Improve and Prove” is the path forward. Improving the consistency of sport horse traits over generations while also proving the capability of the horses in competition and other performance tests as well as by what they produce in the breeding shed will reveal what value exists in the breed for contributing to the sport horse world. Until we do a better job of showing that “really good for sport” Arabians can be bred, then the use of Arabians in sport horse and sport pony breeding will remain on the margins. We also have to strive to systematically improve the purebred Arabian sport horse base in each generation.
Additionally, more knowledge of the deeper levels of physiological breed traits can assist purebred breeders and those who want to most effectively cross breed with Arabs. For instance, the X-factor large heart gene exists in the Arab breed so selection for that trait can be beneficial for sport. The X-factor gene is more prevalent in lineages that have been tested in endurance and/or flat racing though it can be found throughout the breed. In terms of type 1 muscle (slow twitch/endurance fibers) versus type 2 muscle (fast twitch/propulsive power), Arabians are at the end of the spectrum with a higher proportion of type 1 muscles over type 2 compared to other breeds. (OTOH, QHs and many WBs have a higher proportion of type 2 over type 1 while TBs and other WBs are in the middle of the spectrum of muscle fiber proportions). This muscle fiber type distribution impacts the kind of athleticism that is manifested. Training can alter the muscle fiber proportions to some degree in order to increase stamina in horses that start with more type 2 fibers or to increase muscular power in horses that start with a higher proportion of type 1 fibers. Arabians will generally have lower innate propulsive power than TBs and WBs which will effect their natural gaits. Understanding this is critical to evaluating what Arabians bring to the table as well as to help develop the best training/conditioning program for developing individual Arabian and part-Arabian horses in sport performance.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6696177]
Also, since DH has a bit of firecracker blood in him, I might end up with a firecracker foal. [/QUOTE]
That’s what I was thinking about. I knew a couple DH offspring and they were pretty hot and “firecrackers” themselves. If I saw a DH/Arabian cross I would think that would be one hot horse!
I think a stallion like Don Principe would make a nice cross with an Arabian.
I’m with DY, as I’ve always had a crush on DH and I’ve had the thought of using him on my Escudo II/Arabian filly when the time comes. Just dreaming, as I may be too chicken that I won’t be able to ride it. BUT what a foal it could be!
Don Principe is a nice thought, as he has blood too with Prince Thatch. May be too much blood though for the foal. I like the Donnerhall idea, what about DeNiro? I have been looking at DeNiro or a DeNiro bred stallion for my AHS approved Arabian mare on the recommendation of one of the inspection judges.
I started reading this thread to learn more about these Arab/WB crosses and got to page 3 before I realized that I have one. 
Mine might be something of a cautionary tale. His dam was Arab, sire KWPN. He was supposed to be 16hh. He’s about 14.1hh, and looks like a chubby pony.
He was given to me because he doesn’t like being ridden by children. However, he loves being my ‘horse’, to the extent that he doesn’t like me riding anyone else. I would definitely say he’s a one-person animal.
He’s a lovely mover and an excellent jumper, but he’d developed a bad bucking habit which seems to be dissipating. He’s very sound and sturdy-boned. He’s fun to work with, despite the bucks, because he’s always engaged and really does try to be good. He hates being reprimanded for anything.
I don’t know his exact bloodlines but he does have papers of some sort. I’m 5’7" and while we might look like an odd match on the ground, we don’t look like an obvious adult-on-a-pony combination. He’s a good fit for me.
Those that are interested in breeding Arabian to Warmbloods really should look at the Shagya Arabian. There are a few quality breeders here in America and Canada.
The difference with the Shagya is that the stallions MUST undergo a stallion performance test, not at all unlike the WB SPT. The mares must also be inspected and approved as breeding stock. The breeding philosophy of the Shagya is to maintain a certain calibre and quality of the stock and maintain a breed standard and temperament is one of the primary requirements right up there with athletic abilities.
http://www.shagya.net/breeders_directory.htm
The warmblood societies in general are more than likely more open to the Shagya program than any other Arabian program in the world today, although to be approved in the WB registry, the stallions (and mares) must be inspected or are expected to compete to performance standards (in other words, keep up with the warmbloods).
In Hanover, it is the Shagya Arabian they tend to use, and even then quite judiciously. Or a multi-generational Anglo-Arab (and a key noted Anglo-Arabian that stands at Celle is Bonaparte AA who also descends from Shagya blood). The Shagya’s for all their history, are purposely bred for athletic sport and for war, therefore, they are closer to the requirements for jumping and dressage. Just thought I’d throw this out there since many people don’t realize there are 2 breeds of Arabian and the Shagya is the oldest of them. Godolphin Arabian, Lees Arabian and Darley were all thought to be Shagya Arabians. All were bred from the areas known now as Turkey/Arabia/Iran/Iraq. Godolphin was given as a gift to King Louis XV of France and was one of 3 foundational sires of today’s Thoroughbred (Darley and Bryerly Turk were the other 2).
PS: Another note - the stallion Nicolette’s Revelation that just underwent the North American 70-day test successfully, is a Shagya Arabian stallion, one of many that stand with Adele Furby and her extraordinarily successful Shagya breeding program.
I’m sure Dawn will come back and add way more info than I can, I thought Shagya’s are not considered PB Arabians? AHA will not register one unless one parent is a PB Arabian and then they get HA registration. At least that is how I understood it.
I have a friend that breeds Shagya’s for endurance, they have good size, nice bone and very willing temperaments. Which registries will approve one here in the states? Will GOV & AHS approve them?
Shagya’s are not a pure breed - but they are now a breed unto themselves and maintain a strict breeding program of quality, breed standard. They descend from traditional Arabian, however, their big difference is they have always been bred specifically for war and sport. They tend to average over 16 hands, have long very sturdy legs, are known for their sturdiness and are not prone to bone problems.
We have a long family tradition with Arabians and Shagya Arabians and they are breeds that are near and dear to my heart. My great-auntie bred traditional arabians. When hers were noted to get too small, which pure traditional arabians tend to do, she bred back to the Shagya for improvement. Later, she used Shagya’s to cross with Thoroughbreds and her Anglo-Arabians were noted to be tall (well over 16.2 hands), extremely athletic, great brains and exceptional jumping talent. Jumping was her thing, and auntie competed in show jumping until she hung up her competitive hat at 70. My first coach bought one of auntie’s horses and took that horse to the 1.4m level of jumping. I think if I ever decided to get into Anglo breeding, I would definitely follow her program because she was so successful with it. I still have her notes - she kept detailed and careful records of her program, she was a breeder for some 65 years (!) and it is a treasure to have today. When Auntie died at 96, she still stood a stallion and 7 mares. A real Arabian is exceedingly loyal. If they picked you for their person, they would never leave you. My first horse was an Arabian of Shagya descent. I owned him for 12 years before giving him to a retirement place. When the lady died some 6 years later, I went back to get him. He recognized me right away, shrieked a whinny and came galloping up and put his head against my shoulder and chest. The daughter said he had never done that to anyone. I took him home with me that day and I kept him until I had to put him down at the grand age of 34 years! He was the epitomy of everything a real Arabian stands for - loyalty, durability (never lame a day in his life), extremely intelligent, and very athletic - we competed 3-day eventing, dressage, and show jumping together and quite often he beat the bigger horses. In his older years (22 years of age) we even competed in a few endurance races, always placed in the top 4. To say he had a competitive spirit is putting it lightly.
I LIKE him!
[QUOTE=SamWerner;6695698]
SportArab-
Haha no…the mare that was posted is my boy’s dam You had it right. I was also just mentioning that I have a purebred Crabbet/Polish mare as my second horse!
Sonesta posted one picture of him on here, but here is the link to a public album of my boy who is the one by UB40 out of the black Polish/Crabbet mare that you saw a picture of:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.906485199565.2262163.33401537&type=3
Here is the latest full body picture I have of him (cell phone quality!):
Enjoy![/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Dawn J-L;6696382]
Part of what has to happen to help make Arabians more desirable in sport horse breeding is to prove that Arabians exist that have strongly structured hindquarters, strong loins and correct L-S placement, good saddle position, etc. and work to show that these traits can be bred forward consistently. IMO, “Improve and Prove” is the path forward. Improving the consistency of sport horse traits over generations while also proving the capability of the horses in competition and other performance tests as well as by what they produce in the breeding shed will reveal what value exists in the breed for contributing to the sport horse world. Until we do a better job of showing that “really good for sport” Arabians can be bred, then the use of Arabians in sport horse and sport pony breeding will remain on the margins. We also have to strive to systematically improve the purebred Arabian sport horse base in each generation.
Additionally, more knowledge of the deeper levels of physiological breed traits can assist purebred breeders and those who want to most effectively cross breed with Arabs. For instance, the X-factor large heart gene exists in the Arab breed so selection for that trait can be beneficial for sport. The X-factor gene is more prevalent in lineages that have been tested in endurance and/or flat racing though it can be found throughout the breed. In terms of type 1 muscle (slow twitch/endurance fibers) versus type 2 muscle (fast twitch/propulsive power), Arabians are at the end of the spectrum with a higher proportion of type 1 muscles over type 2 compared to other breeds. (OTOH, QHs and many WBs have a higher proportion of type 2 over type 1 while TBs and other WBs are in the middle of the spectrum of muscle fiber proportions). This muscle fiber type distribution impacts the kind of athleticism that is manifested. Training can alter the muscle fiber proportions to some degree in order to increase stamina in horses that start with more type 2 fibers or to increase muscular power in horses that start with a higher proportion of type 1 fibers. Arabians will generally have lower innate propulsive power than TBs and WBs which will effect their natural gaits. Understanding this is critical to evaluating what Arabians bring to the table as well as to help develop the best training/conditioning program for developing individual Arabian and part-Arabian horses in sport performance.[/QUOTE]
Given the wide variation within the breed, I don’t think you can generalize. I wouldn’t say that my guys have lower innate propulsive power than TBs and WBs. And that’s because I’ve bred for a sport horse type Arabian.
[QUOTE=SportArab;6696711]
Given the wide variation within the breed, I don’t think you can generalize. I wouldn’t say that my guys have lower innate propulsive power than TBs and WBs. And that’s because I’ve bred for a sport horse type Arabian.[/QUOTE]
My comment was not meant to deny that there is variability, but to point out that there are traits associated with the breed that go deeper than the GBE drawing of the “ideal” Arabian or even than what is contained in the written breed standard. That Arabians strongly trend toward the stamina type muscle versus propulsive type is not a slam on the bred, but is based on actual comparative studies between breeds. The Arabian’s dominance in the sport of endurance is (in part) a direct consequence of having a high proportion of type 1 muscle just as the QH’s sprinting ability comes (in part) from having a higher proportion of type 2 muscle and the TB excels at the “sport of kings” (in part) due to an intermediate proportion of type 1 and type 2 fibers. Recognizing that even among the sub-population of good sport type Arabians, stamina is likely to be a strong trait with raw power being a less prevalent trait is useful knowledge, IMO.
Again, I am not dismissing that there are some purebred Arabs that have more “raw muscle power” than is typical for the breed (FWIW, I’ve got a pretty good idea of what lines are more likely to carry “power” within my bloodline group), but I AM asserting that evidence from several studies shows that the athleticism of the breed has been developed more toward the type 1 muscle metabolism than what has been the case for other athletic breeds. If Arabian sport horse breeders want to be taken seriously, we MUST critically examine the characteristics of the breed, of particular bloodlines, and of specific individuals. That’s just part of breeding for improvement.
Of course, in terms of “power” and “strength” --muscle fiber type proportions are only part of the story – substantial bone, short canons, large joints, a “four cornered” base of support, a long deep well angled hindquarter, a strong loin, and other structural aspects also contribute to the ability to generate power. I brought up the muscle fiber type proportions as an example of how a deep analysis of athletic characteristics is essential to breeding the best possible Arabians for sport --both as purebreds and for cross-breeding into the sport horse and sport pony registries.
[QUOTE=rodawn;6696562]
Those that are interested in breeding Arabian to Warmbloods really should look at the Shagya Arabian. There are a few quality breeders here in America and Canada.
(snip) The Shagya’s for all their history, are purposely bred for athletic sport and for war, therefore, they are closer to the requirements for jumping and dressage. (snip)
PS: Another note - the stallion Nicolette’s Revelation that just underwent the North American 70-day test successfully, is a Shagya Arabian stallion, one of many that stand with Adele Furby and her extraordinarily successful Shagya breeding program.[/QUOTE]
I greatly admire Shagyas and agree both that the breed is a purpose bred sport breed and that the Shagya Arabian is more often utilized by WB registries in Europe than the purebred Arabian is.
I was delighted to see that a Shagya had participated in this year’s 70 day NA SPT. I hope more do so in future years.
I am pretty certain that the OP started the thread to discuss the direct use of purebred Arabians in WB breeding versus indirect Arabian influence in WB breeding via Shagyas, AAs, or SFs. I happen to think that it is an interesting question as to whether and in what ways purebred Arabians may/can have relevance in the wider sport horse world. The rules of most of the WB registries offer Arabians a place at the table as a source of “blood” just as with TBs, AAs, and Shagyas. There are purebreds being used NOW in WB breeding so the question of what they contribute is worth exploring, IMO.
Just thought I’d throw this out there since many people don’t realize there are 2 breeds of Arabian and the Shagya is the oldest of them. Godolphin Arabian, Lees Arabian and Darley were all thought to be Shagya Arabians. All were bred from the areas known now as Turkey/Arabia/Iran/Iraq. Godolphin was given as a gift to King Louis XV of France and was one of 3 foundational sires of today’s Thoroughbred (Darley and Bryerly Turk were the other 2).
This account of breed history is a bit garbled, I think. AFAIK, the Shagya is a Hungarian breed derived from Oriental (Arabian and perhaps Barb) horses crossed with native Hungarian horses. While it is true that there is strong evidence (via DNA and historical records) that at least some of the Oriental progenitors of the English Thoroughbred were Barbs or Turkoman horses rather than Arabians, I’ve never seen a claim before that the confusion in the case of the Oriental foundation sources of the TB was between Arabians and Shagyas. What is the source for your information on that?
[QUOTE=SportArab;6696704]
I LIKE him![/QUOTE]
Thank you both!!! I think he is pretty special
[QUOTE=EquineLVR;6690846]
I dont care where they come from… just asking if there are any…if you know of any please share…[/QUOTE]
I have plenty of Anglo Arabians, and two are French Anglos, both mares. One is black 16.3h age 5 and the other is seal brown 16.2h age 4.
[QUOTE=JWB;6690885]
Baladin D’Oc was not an F1 Anglo Arabian though. You had to go back 4 generations to get to the first full Arabian, and 7 generations before you find one in the mareline. I suspect by that point you’d have a much more cemented type. I love a good half arabian and if I had access to one like him, I’d be right there in line to use him. I’d be a lot more leery about an F1 personally… but call me in a few generations!
I absolutely think it would be a fantastic undertaking to see someone commit to breeding the Anglos to Anglos. They’re such a nice type and it would be great to see them consistently reproduce themselves.[/QUOTE]
I do just that. I have several different generations of Anglos.
Here is a list of my homebreds:
16.1h dark brown stallion (50%)
16.3h black mare (29%) Also registered Selle Francais.
16.1h brown mare (50%)
16.2h brown mare (29%) Also registered Selle Francais.
17.0h bay gelding (50%) Full brother to above stallion
17.0h bay gelding (25%) Sired by above stallion
16.1h chestnut mare (50%)
17.0h palomino gelding (25%)
17.0h chestnut gelding (25%)
16.2h grey gelding (25%)
16.3h chestnut gelding (50%)
16.3h chestnut gelding (50%)
16.1h palomino mare (50%)
16.0h bay sabino gelding (50%)
15.2h palomino mare (50%)
[QUOTE=stripes;6696432]
I’m with DY, as I’ve always had a crush on DH and I’ve had the thought of using him on my Escudo II/Arabian filly when the time comes. Just dreaming, as I may be too chicken that I won’t be able to ride it. BUT what a foal it could be!
Don Principe is a nice thought, as he has blood too with Prince Thatch. May be too much blood though for the foal. I like the Donnerhall idea, what about DeNiro? I have been looking at DeNiro or a DeNiro bred stallion for my AHS approved Arabian mare on the recommendation of one of the inspection judges.[/QUOTE]
De Niro is certainly a very proven sire of GP talent (and another of my favorites), but I already have a De Niro (whom I love), and don’t need or want another one badly enough to breed this mare to him. Don Principe is not yet a proven sire of GP horses, plus I am not sure I would want to add that much TB blood.
Breeding her is a pipe dream, anyway, considering the economy and some health issues I am dealing with. I absolutely do not want another mouth to feed - so I will continue to dream about Diamond Hit for the reasons I listed earlier (he is the 4th straight generation of GP dressage stallions, plus is a proven sire of GP dressage stallions). And I have just always LIKED him. I was a bit sad when PS sold him, but it was good business deal, and it turned out well for DH because Emma took him to GP - which would not have happened if he had remained with PS.
You seem to be suggesting that warmbloods, like quarter horses, have a lot of fast twitch muscle, which I would say is yet another vast generalization. There’s plenty of variation among warmbloods, too.
The kinds of generalizations you’re making don’t help breeders one bit, IMO. You take the individual you’ve got, carefully research her pedigree and figure out what she’s most likely to produce. I say she here because most of the warmblood crosses are being created with Arabian mares, rather than stallions.
I’ve got three F1 cross mares, two of which I’ve already taken to be inspected by the GOV. They both got very good scores. One ended up in the MMB, the other easily had the scores to make MMB, but was downgraded because she’s a bit small (and I was told that if she produces big, she can be upgraded to the MMB).
The third F1 cross mare is easily the best of the bunch and she will be presented next year.
How did I consistenly get this kind of quality? I learned my mares pedigrees many generations back and picked stallions that I thought were very much like them in type. The mares are, for the most part Polish/Crabbet bred, one with a dash of Russian.
There are plenty of Arabs with movement comparable to warmbloods - you just have to know where to look. I’d say that the Russian horses, for example, were noted for this kind of movement, and often had much loser backs and more natural push from behind.
Some horses have the right conformation, but need the training to learn how to use their bodies better - bringing their heads down and rounding their backs, for example.
[QUOTE=Dawn J-L;6696993]
My comment was not meant to deny that there is variability, but to point out that there are traits associated with the breed that go deeper than the GBE drawing of the “ideal” Arabian or even than what is contained in the written breed standard. That Arabians strongly trend toward the stamina type muscle versus propulsive type is not a slam on the bred, but is based on actual comparative studies between breeds. The Arabian’s dominance in the sport of endurance is (in part) a direct consequence of having a high proportion of type 1 muscle just as the QH’s sprinting ability comes (in part) from having a higher proportion of type 2 muscle and the TB excels at the “sport of kings” (in part) due to an intermediate proportion of type 1 and type 2 fibers. Recognizing that even among the sub-population of good sport type Arabians, stamina is likely to be a strong trait with raw power being a less prevalent trait is useful knowledge, IMO.
Again, I am not dismissing that there are some purebred Arabs that have more “raw muscle power” than is typical for the breed (FWIW, I’ve got a pretty good idea of what lines are more likely to carry “power” within my bloodline group), but I AM asserting that evidence from several studies shows that the athleticism of the breed has been developed more toward the type 1 muscle metabolism than what has been the case for other athletic breeds. If Arabian sport horse breeders want to be taken seriously, we MUST critically examine the characteristics of the breed, of particular bloodlines, and of specific individuals. That’s just part of breeding for improvement.
Of course, in terms of “power” and “strength” --muscle fiber type proportions are only part of the story – substantial bone, short canons, large joints, a “four cornered” base of support, a long deep well angled hindquarter, a strong loin, and other structural aspects also contribute to the ability to generate power. I brought up the muscle fiber type proportions as an example of how a deep analysis of athletic characteristics is essential to breeding the best possible Arabians for sport --both as purebreds and for cross-breeding into the sport horse and sport pony registries.[/QUOTE]
I actually found the information interesting and think it is useful information. It directly relates to why the WB registries include TB’s & Arabian’s into their breed books. It relates to endurance and quicker recovery after a workout.
[QUOTE=Dawn J-L;6697042]
This account of breed history is a bit garbled, I think. AFAIK, the Shagya is a Hungarian breed derived from Oriental (Arabian and perhaps Barb) horses crossed with native Hungarian horses. While it is true that there is strong evidence (via DNA and historical records) that at least some of the Oriental progenitors of the English Thoroughbred were Barbs or Turkoman horses rather than Arabians, I’ve never seen a claim before that the confusion in the case of the Oriental foundation sources of the TB was between Arabians and Shagyas. What is the source for your information on that?[/QUOTE]
You only need to look up any of the history of Godolphin Arabian and the foundation of Thoroughbreds in the 1600s and you get the whole history of it. King Louis XV was apparently horse gagga and he owned Darley and Godolphin. Godolphin’s other name was Godolphin Barb and he was bred by Francis Godolphin, 2nd Earl of Godolphin and HE called him Arabian. Later, he was given as a gift to King Louis XV for his stud farm. Arabian horses are credited as being the oldest breed in known history, and are credited as foundational horses for the start of all modern breeds today, especially Thoroughbred blood stock and the same goes for warmbloods. I can trace my own TB’s mare’s history right back and she descends from FRANCE to Godolphin and Darley. There are also Turks and other horsees in the TB to make it what it is today. Including a special mare called Old Bald Peg. Who knows who she was, but she’s in a considerable number of pedigrees.
As for the locale of the Shagya, ancient history changes the locations of these countries around quite a bit. Turkey was considered oriental and most of the Shagya’s these days come through Hungary which is where the main registry is, but Hungary wasn’t always called Hungary as it depended on what rival territory took over whatever part at any given point in time. Generally speaking, the Shagya descends between pure Arabians and turks and from around that whole middle-east which, by the way, in olden days was called the orient. Anything east of today’s modern Ukraine was the “orient”.
[QUOTE=rodawn;6697725]
You only need to look up any of the history of Godolphin Arabian and the foundation of Thoroughbreds in the 1600s and you get the whole history of it.[/QUOTE]
there are 2 breeds of Arabian and the Shagya is the oldest of them. Godolphin Arabian, Lees Arabian and Darley were all thought to be Shagya Arabians
I have read many accounts (some more authoritative than others 
) of the histories of the TB, of the Arabian, and of the Shagya Arabian, but none that I’ve seen ever claimed that the Oriental contribution to the development of the TB was via Shagyas nor had I ever encountered the claim that the Shagya Arabian was an older breed than the Bedouin Arabian. OTOH, in your last post you wrote that the Shagya “descends between purebred Arabians and turks” which contradicts the earlier statement that the Shagya is an older breed than the purebred Arabian, so I remain a bit baffled by what you were trying to say was the true history! 
