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Let's talk about Arabian/WB crosses

Sport Horse Breeding
#1

Thought I’d start a thread to talk about the pro’s and con’s of the of the Arabian/WB cross. I’ve always wanted a pretty smaller WB for myself and 4 years ago I finally went ahead and bred my Arabian mare to Escudo II. LOVE this filly, she’s everything I’ve ever wanted in a dressage partner. Smaller size with WB gaits, willingness to work, lots of expression without the silliness that can come with it and she’s beautiful! I’ve had so much fun with her, I decided to breed my mare again, this time to Landkoenig. Love this colt too! Different stallion with basically the same results, except the smaller size. This one will easily be 16h+, whereas the filly will top out around 15.1h. Both of them are very amateur friendly, WB type with the Arabian pretty, in your pocket attitudes and can really move like a WB.

Since I’m now in love with this cross and plan on creating more, I’d love to know if there are others with the same interests. Does registering them with a WB registry give them more appeal? Do people want smaller, more responsive riding horses? Would you look at a Hanoverian or Oldenburg filly with an Arabian dam for a future broodmare?

Pics of the babies I’ve created so far.
2009 Hanoverian filly, Excepchanel
(Escudo II x Caraechstrodinair ox)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3663565545778&set=a.1096467809939.2015506.1173902979&type=3&theater

2012 Hanoverian colt, Landinair
(Landkoenig x Caraechstrodinair ox)
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3531173596062.2139338.1173902979&type=3

I would love to see others of this cross =)

#2

As you know, I’ve been drooling over Landinair since you posted his 4wk video on ABN.

#3

Thank you MyssMyst! He’s a lot of fun! He’s pretty much grown out of that phase, now he’s showcasing his newly found gait, the trot. LOL

Here’s the silly video of Landi at 4 weeks
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3531173596062.2139338.1173902979&type=3

#4

There was a lady around here who had an arab/Wb X breeding program for years. It worked well for amateur mounts. They were versatile with good minds. Able to get many kids started and be competitive.
Many Wb’s have arab somewhere in the mix and many registries still add arab blood so this is not a a new concept. I guess the thing is that it is most likely going to be more of an amateur’s horse (which is a big market) but unfortunately many people do not always buy a horse that suits their ability and many people want bragging rights, maybe more than the right horse for them.
So the market is probably the thing you have to figure out.
Btw, the filly is very nice but at three years old, how do you know she is everything you ever wanted in a dressage partner? And how do you know that the colt is the same result but size?
Sorry but people use mare lines just to try and cut down on the guess work of the offspring, knowing that you have everything you want from 2 foals (from different sires) and the oldest one being 3 seems a bit like jumping ahead. I think they are very attractive and if you have sales for them, then I guess you have met your goals.
But as far as a breeding success for sport, it seems you need to see some results before you can judge.
If you get the ones you have out there and successful (like the lady I described above) then you have a reputation that will help you with sales and will overcome some of the hesitation that people may have about a cross. Seeing is believing for most people.

PS this is not a breed prejudice. I also think many foals that are super well bred and get much acclaim may not end up being a top horse and many fail along the way for one reason or another.

#5

completely non-technical perspective: the Arab warmbloods at our barn are just PRETTY. No giant, heavy heads & the refinement is beautiful. They also seem to be less…lugubrious.

Our BO/trainer’s foals get the high score award at ISR inspections almost every year. Inspector always says they typify the “modern” type. They also have a trot to DIE FOR.

Most of hers have been of decent if not TALL height. She bred only Arabs for years, I tease her about how the size of her mounting block must have changed. They all do very well in dressage, but a few have been too hot for the less-brave ammies that have purchased them.

cons… can someone explain the ‘triangle butt’ to me? Some arabs (SOME, don’t flame me) just have weak looking hind ends & I have seen some of them come through in the WB.

other potential issue: if breeders aren’t conscientious in choosing sires, I wonder if the cross of a fine boned horse w/ heavier WB may result in soundness/leg issues. Again, don’t flame me, but I think if this is not considered it may result in problems. What do you think?

#6

Stoicfish, I appreciate your response. My filly is coming 4 and under saddle. She is a very game and willing partner. She’s forward, soft and very responsive, everything that I want in a dressage partner. Her half brother is very similar to his sister at the same age, although he’s got more size than she did at the same age. They are both registered Hanoverian & HA. I should add I’m not new to breeding and not new to having dressage horses. I spent a couple of years trying to find a smaller WB mare that suited my personal needs with no luck. So I decided to breed my Arabian mare to a Hanoverian. The result has been very positive in and out of the show ring.

As for breeding… I was wondering if there was interest in other breeder’s having an F1 generation half Arabian for breeding purposes. How is this jumping ahead of anything? And I don’t care if the FI is from my mare or someone else’s Arabian mare, just wondering if there is interest. And where to go for the F2.
The lady you described doesn’t really tell me anything about the level of success in competition for sport. And there are many Arabian/WB crosses that are successful in competition with professionals & amateurs. I’ve mostly looked into dressage, as that is my interest, and this cross has been successful training up the levels with their riders. I have a few friends that have bred this cross and have produced FEI level dressage horses. This is not a new cross by any means . Just wanting to see what the interest is in producing this cross for others to enjoy.

#7

My trainer bred two Arabian/Hanoverian crosses out of her Hanoverian mare. One is just coming 3, the other is almost 8 months. Both are lovely, lovely movers with excellent temperaments. They’ll both probably be huge, but their dam is 17.3 and their sires (two different Arabs) were both on the taller side for Arabs, around 15hh and 15.2. She expects the younger colt to be taller than the filly.

Both have a huntery movement, and are much prettier than their mother. The filly is registered as a half-Arab, and she may try a few WB registries, we’ll see.

#8

[QUOTE=Hippolyta;6685495]
completely non-technical perspective: the Arab warmbloods at our barn are just PRETTY. No giant, heavy heads & the refinement is beautiful. They also seem to be less…lugubrious.

Our BO/trainer’s foals get the high score award at ISR inspections almost every year. Inspector always says they typify the “modern” type. They also have a trot to DIE FOR.

Most of hers have been of decent if not TALL height. She bred only Arabs for years, I tease her about how the size of her mounting block must have changed. They all do very well in dressage, but a few have been too hot for the less-brave ammies that have purchased them.

cons… can someone explain the ‘triangle butt’ to me? Some arabs (SOME, don’t flame me) just have weak looking hind ends & I have seen some of them come through in the WB.

other potential issue: if breeders aren’t conscientious in choosing sires, I wonder if the cross of a fine boned horse w/ heavier WB may result in soundness/leg issues. Again, don’t flame me, but I think if this is not considered it may result in problems. What do you think?[/QUOTE]

I love to know what bloodlines are in your barn. Both WB and Arabian.
Keep in mind that Arabians have been bred for over 2000 years and most of those years they were bred to get thru deep sand with speed. So that triangle booty has a purpose - just not my purpose :). There are many Arabians that do not have that triangle booty - those are the ones that interest me. Also, just because the Arabian is “fine boned” this doesn’t mean that they have weak bones. Actually quite the opposite - Arabian’s have very dense bones and is one of the reasons why WB registries want Arabian blood - strong bones & endurance (larger hearts), the pretty is just a bonus.

#9

[QUOTE=big_red_ottb;6685516]
My trainer bred two Arabian/Hanoverian crosses out of her Hanoverian mare. One is just coming 3, the other is almost 8 months. Both are lovely, lovely movers with excellent temperaments. They’ll both probably be huge, but their dam is 17.3 and their sires (two different Arabs) were both on the taller side for Arabs, around 15hh and 15.2. She expects the younger colt to be taller than the filly.

Both have a huntery movement, and are much prettier than their mother. The filly is registered as a half-Arab, and she may try a few WB registries, we’ll see.[/QUOTE]

Awesome! I would LOVE to know the bloodlines of both sides of pedigree. I think if we start promoting the cross with bloodlines people will become familar with the lines that work better than others.

#10

[QUOTE=stripes;6685512]
As for breeding… I was wondering if there was interest in other breeder’s having an F1 generation half Arabian for breeding purposes. How is this jumping ahead of anything? And I don’t care if the FI is from my mare or someone else’s Arabian mare, just wondering if there is interest. And where to go for the F2.
The lady you described doesn’t really tell me anything about the level of success in competition for sport. And there are many Arabian/WB crosses that are successful in competition with professionals & amateurs. I’ve mostly looked into dressage, as that is my interest, and this cross has been successful training up the levels with their riders. I have a few friends that have bred this cross and have produced FEI level dressage horses. This is not a new cross by any means . Just wanting to see what the interest is in producing this cross for others to enjoy.[/QUOTE]

I misunderstood your original inquire. Sorry. The lady in question has sold a ton of horses and she went with more Wb stallions for F2-F4. While many sold to amateur riders, many breeders realized that the arab in the pedigree were not as competitive in the breeders market as a full Wb mare (this is true of Tb’s also, unless the Tb is proven in sport). So while the amateur rider market did appreciate the product, breeders were not as receptive as the WB market became more competitive. Any horse once proven, holds it’s own value. But breeding stock and selling young horses is based on the success of the other horses in its pedigree.
Good luck with you program. A good horse is a good horse.

#11

So what is triangle booty for? Can you explain how it helps/affects movement?

I have always wondered, b/c it really is unsightly. I have noticed that it seems to make leg flex less at stifle when they walk. (not sure if I am explaining it correctly, but hind leg seems to remain straight & swing forward, not flex at all when walking)

Our BO has bred to Rousseau with wildly successful results. Right now she is breeding her half arabs (all from her line) to the WB stallions.

#12

I think registering both AHS and half Arabian is definitely the way to go. These days half warmblood/half Arabian crosses are becoming more popular in the Arab sporthorse world, where folks have the chance to go to Nationals, etc., with their HAs. Having a mare who has passed WB inspection and is producing nice foals gives her a legitimacy someone just breeding Arabian mares to whatever stallion they pick without the inspections/approvals would have.

I doubt the babies would be a huge draw to breeders without performance records, but certainly most warmbloods out there will have quite a bit of Arab blood. My Trakehner filly’s sire (Oskar pg) is 1/4 Arab, and I know of several very nice Aul Magic Trakehner babies who are out there, both for breeding and competing.

#13

I bred my good moving Arab stallion to my good but a bit old fashioned GOV mare and the resulting foal won all 6 of his USDF classes and was Reserve Champion USDF Region 6 ABIG Breeders Series. This year he went to sport Arab shows and won everything and became the National Champion Arabian Sport Horse Yearling Colt and won the Sweepstakes, too. He is NWSHBA Grand CHamp colt and Oregon CHamp Foal as well. His mother is a multi champion and his father Fames Reward is a Champion, too and one of the best movers, warmblood or Arab I have ever seen. So, yes, a good Arab and a good warmblood makes a lot of sense. He has huge gaits, a big butt and is pretty. He will be 16hh-16.1hh from all the measurements I did from day 1 on. Here is a link to him if anyone is interested in checking him out.
http://www.warmbloods-for-sale.com/HorseDetail.asp?HorseID=33427&UserID=13362

#14

[QUOTE=Gayle in Oregon;6685581]
I bred my good moving Arab stallion to my good but a bit old fashioned GOV mare and the resulting foal won all 6 of his USDF classes and was Reserve Champion USDF Region 6 ABIG Breeders Series. This year he went to sport Arab shows and won everything and became the National Champion Arabian Sport Horse Yearling Colt and won the Sweepstakes, too. He is NWSHBA Grand CHamp colt and Oregon CHamp Foal as well. His mother is a multi champion and his father Fames Reward is a Champion, too and one of the best movers, warmblood or Arab I have ever seen. So, yes, a good Arab and a good warmblood makes a lot of sense. He has huge gaits, a big butt and is pretty. He will be 16hh-16.1hh from all the measurements I did from day 1 on. Here is a link to him if anyone is interested in checking him out.
http://www.warmbloods-for-sale.com/HorseDetail.asp?HorseID=33427&UserID=13362[/QUOTE]

Awesome Gayle In Oregon! Congrats! I know the Arabian Nationals was lacking in entries, but many have said the quality of the entries was very good. Thank you for supporting SHN :).

Your colt’s sire line Fame VF has produced a few very nice lower level Arabians, interesting crossing him on an Oldenburg mare. I realize your guy is just a coming 2 yr. old, but where do you rate his gaits? Fame VF tends to produce more Hunter type in movement than dressage type. And I do know that MP Dartagnan+++// is sired by your stallion’s full brother - but he lacks in elasticity and reach, although is very trainable. I never thought of using this line with a WB, looks like your mare crossed well. Lots of pretty, do you see him more of a Hunter type or Dressage type?

ETA - for those that don’t know Fame VF+, he is the most successful sire of Western Pleasure horses ever!

#15

[QUOTE=Hippolyta;6685555]
So what is triangle booty for? Can you explain how it helps/affects movement?

I have always wondered, b/c it really is unsightly. I have noticed that it seems to make leg flex less at stifle when they walk. (not sure if I am explaining it correctly, but hind leg seems to remain straight & swing forward, not flex at all when walking)

Our BO has bred to Rousseau with wildly successful results. Right now she is breeding her half arabs (all from her line) to the WB stallions.[/QUOTE]

I’m not a fan of the triangle booty and do not own any Arabian with a triangle booty, but it has been explained to me that it is very efficient for travelling long distances in sand. LOL. Most Arabians have weak walks, so they need to be bred to stallions with great walks for my needs. Also, the Arabian mares that I have seen that have produced successful dressage horses do not have the triangle booty.

#16

Does it matter whether the Arab is on top or bottom when it comes to the cross?
I have spent the last few years drooling over HG Esquire. I would love to put him to one of our WB mares and with the Cyber Monday special they are running, 2013 might just be the year :smiley:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Gainey-Cornerstone-Arabians-Sport-Horses/137696739611189

#17

I own and ride a PB Arab gelding in dressage. I have long been interested in finding an Oldenburg/Arab.
Sheilah

#18

![]( have a lovely Dutch Arab cross that is the best horse I have ever known.

[IMG]http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll317/skykingismybaby/handsomeSkyKing.jpg)

Sensible and hardworking with wonderful gaits. A bit small but I only notice that on the ground …under saddle he is 17 hands

#19

I was also going to ask the question about whether it would make a difference if the Arabian came from the top or bottom.

I’ve seen a few of both bred locally around here, although the people I know who bred them were not pursuing warmblood inspections either way. Unapproved Arab mares to unapproved WB stallion, and WB mares to arabian stallions.

I really liked some . They looked like lighter very modern warmbloods. The quality was all over the board though… Also saw some very spindley looking horses with big heavy warmblood heads and the tiny little Arabian engine.

I think if it’s done right, it could be an amazing riding horse. I wonder about breeders reception too. Maybe easier if the stallion is a WB approved Arabian to a Warmblood mare? Seems that breeders like their TB blood to come from the stallion side. Would Arabian blood be considered the same way?

#20

I have a really nice Oldenburg/Arab mare. She is 15.1 and has the best of both parents in my opinion. I am 5’1" with short legs and she is perfect for me. She was reserve filly at her inspection. I plan on breeding her next spring, hopefully to Jupiter as I am hoping for a hunter for me that will stay in the 15 hand range.
Her older full sister was just a hair under 16hh. Bigger all around and had less of the refinement that I really wanted from the cross. She took after their sire more. She was placed in the main mare book at her mare inspection.
I feel that while my mare is the smaller of the pair, she is has much better conformation, movement, and she had a wonderful work ethic and is very ammy friendly.

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