Let's talk about Arabian/WB crosses

[stripes]

[QUOTE=alliekat;6685711]
Does it matter whether the Arab is on top or bottom when it comes to the cross?
I have spent the last few years drooling over HG Esquire. I would love to put him to one of our WB mares and with the Cyber Monday special they are running, 2013 might just be the year

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Gainey-Cornerstone-Arabians-Sport-Horses/137696739611189[/QUOTE]

I’ve had success both ways, but I have found that the Arabian dam will lend more pretty to the foal more often than the other way around. I photographed a really beautiful Arabian on I believe an Oldenburg mare, really lovely gelding, sired by the now deceased Aul Magic. This led me to his bigger brother, Magic Aulrab. Our resulting foal is a serious dressage prospect, he’s already sold and headed south to a great dressage home. Dam is a Hanoverian mare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-KSBIr1SaA

To not compromise any movement, I feel you really need to find an Arabian stallion that has 3 very good gaits suited to the WB standards. Sadly there are very few Arabian stallions that I feel meet this requirement, so I’m working on finding good Arabian mares and breeding to WB stallions.

[stripes]

[QUOTE=rider25;6685910]
I have a really nice Oldenburg/Arab mare. She is 15.1 and has the best of both parents in my opinion. I am 5’1" with short legs and she is perfect for me. She was reserve filly at her inspection. I plan on breeding her next spring, hopefully to Jupiter as I am hoping for a hunter for me that will stay in the 15 hand range.
Her older full sister was just a hair under 16hh. Bigger all around and had less of the refinement that I really wanted from the cross. She took after their sire more. She was placed in the main mare book at her mare inspection.
I feel that while my mare is the smaller of the pair, she is has much better conformation, movement, and she had a wonderful work ethic and is very ammy friendly.[/QUOTE]

I would love to see pics & pedigree, she sounds lovely!

[stripes]

[QUOTE=JWB;6685892]
I was also going to ask the question about whether it would make a difference if the Arabian came from the top or bottom.

I’ve seen a few of both bred locally around here, although the people I know who bred them were not pursuing warmblood inspections either way. Unapproved Arab mares to unapproved WB stallion, and WB mares to arabian stallions.

I really liked some . They looked like lighter very modern warmbloods. The quality was all over the board though… Also saw some very spindley looking horses with big heavy warmblood heads and the tiny little Arabian engine.

I think if it’s done right, it could be an amazing riding horse. I wonder about breeders reception too. Maybe easier if the stallion is a WB approved Arabian to a Warmblood mare? Seems that breeders like their TB blood to come from the stallion side. Would Arabian blood be considered the same way?[/QUOTE]

I have to agree with you that many who breed this cross do not have approved mares, but there are many breeders doing there homework, getting their Arabian mares approved and getting some very nice foals. Mostly in the GOV & Old/NA and they are getting a good response with many going premium. My mare was approved AHS back in '08 and there are a handful of others in the AHS too.

It has been my feeling that the registries prefer the Arabian to be on the dam’s side, but I could be wrong.

I completely agree that if its done right, they are amazing!

[equusaround]

[QUOTE=stripes;6685373]
Thought I’d start a thread to talk about the pro’s and con’s of the of the Arabian/WB cross. I’ve always wanted a pretty smaller WB for myself and 4 years ago I finally went ahead and bred my Arabian mare to Escudo II. LOVE this filly, she’s everything I’ve ever wanted in a dressage partner. Smaller size with WB gaits, willingness to work, lots of expression without the silliness that can come with it and she’s beautiful! I’ve had so much fun with her, I decided to breed my mare again, this time to Landkoenig. Love this colt too! Different stallion with basically the same results, except the smaller size. This one will easily be 16h+, whereas the filly will top out around 15.1h. Both of them are very amateur friendly, WB type with the Arabian pretty, in your pocket attitudes and can really move like a WB.

Since I’m now in love with this cross and plan on creating more, I’d love to know if there are others with the same interests. Does registering them with a WB registry give them more appeal? Do people want smaller, more responsive riding horses? Would you look at a Hanoverian or Oldenburg filly with an Arabian dam for a future broodmare?

Pics of the babies I’ve created so far.
2009 Hanoverian filly, Excepchanel
(Escudo II x Caraechstrodinair ox)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3663565545778&set=a.1096467809939.2015506.1173902979&type=3&theater

2012 Hanoverian colt, Landinair
(Landkoenig x Caraechstrodinair ox)
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3531173596062.2139338.1173902979&type=3

I would love to see others of this cross =)[/QUOTE]

LOVE the filly!!! I have had one mare owner that bred her champion Arabian mare to my stallion, Gauguin du Cheval 9054. She registered him Half Arab and Swedish. She competes him at HA shows and he cleans up. She has also shown him in USDF breed shows and he holds his own against the warmbloods. His dam is less than 15 hands and the colt is 16.0+ and looks like a slightly smaller boned warmblood. He moves, he jumps and has a great personality. She is having a difficult time selling him however, I think because he is not a full warmblood. She loves him, however and is thinking of doing the cross again. BTW, Gauguin du Cheval is 35% TB and 5% Shagya Arab, which may be partly responsible for the smooth cross. This was the cross at age 2 showing at a USDF breed show. http://s237.beta.photobucket.com/user/teamgauguin/media/GH%20Gauguins%20Paul/WYNDAbreedshow1.jpg.html?sort=6&o=42

[Sonesta]

We did a custom foal for a COTH member (who will probably chime in here when she sees this thread) breeding one of our purebred Arabian mares to UB40. That colt (now gelding) is still the highest scoring horse in the YHS series for 2012. Finals are in January. He is gorgeous. See pic below.

[goodpony]

[QUOTE=stripes;6685634]
Fame VF tends to produce more Hunter type in movement than dressage type. And I do know that MP Dartagnan+++// is sired by your stallion’s full brother - but he lacks in elasticity and reach, although is very trainable.? Fame VF tends to produce more Hunter type in movement than dressage type. And I do know that MP Dartagnan+++// is sired by your stallion’s full brother - but he lacks in elasticity and reach, although is very trainable. cessful sire of Western Pleasure horses ever![/QUOTE]

I had MP Dartagnan+++// full sister with me–she weren’t no hunter mover not by a long shot–she outscored my Elite Hanno mare at her ISR/OLD NA inspection and went MMB with excellent scores. Her daughter by my pony stallion was absolutely one of the fanciest pony foals I have ever bred. And that one won her USDF Sport Horse Class as a yearling against fillies twice her age and those were warmblood crosses–and they done got beat by an Arabian pony.

[Gayle_in_Oregon]

[QUOTE=stripes;6685634]
Awesome Gayle In Oregon! Congrats! I know the Arabian Nationals was lacking in entries, but many have said the quality of the entries was very good. Thank you for supporting SHN :).

Your colt’s sire line Fame VF has produced a few very nice lower level Arabians, interesting crossing him on an Oldenburg mare. I realize your guy is just a coming 2 yr. old, but where do you rate his gaits? Fame VF tends to produce more Hunter type in movement than dressage type. And I do know that MP Dartagnan+++// is sired by your stallion’s full brother - but he lacks in elasticity and reach, although is very trainable. I never thought of using this line with a WB, looks like your mare crossed well. Lots of pretty, do you see him more of a Hunter type or Dressage type?

ETA - for those that don’t know Fame VF+, he is the most successful sire of Western Pleasure horses ever![/QUOTE]
I did not know Fames’ Rewards’ full brothers in ‘person’ but, I know they were successful stallions. But, I looked at maybe 1,000 stallions to find Fames Reward. He had the elasticity and active hind leg I really insist upon. He has a tremedous top line and long, long shoulder and long long hip as well. Really, he could put a lot of warmbloods to shame. He steps WELL under himself all the time and even at 20 yo he is still elastic. So, his son my 1/2 Arab gelding has mostly got 8-8.5 for gaits in hand in competitions. He has a huge, HUGE walk and swings perfectly through his back in all his gaits. His trot is wonderful. He is undefeated except for once as a baby and he just was too tired after 2 days of showing so that time he was reserve champ. He has beat Dutch, Hanoverians, GOV, ISR, and many other wamblood breeds. He was the highest scored horse of all at one of the Sport Arab shows last spring and he scored way over 80% more than once including the nationals with he average of 2 judges. My handler told me he was the highest scored horse that was not a stallion at the nationals. Dartagan could be better but he is the National CHampion Grand Prix horse this year.

My colt has a lot of candence in his gaits, too.

The Arab trainers who we competed against told me his more dressage type, being uphill in his build and carriage. But, the hunter judges like him too for his overall quality and power. To win the National Champ of course one judge was a hunter judge and the other a dressage judge. I think the hunter judges like his cadence especially well.

I know I have a really, REALLY good stallion in Fames Reward. He is underused on my farm at this point. He should be a dressage sport sire. Oh, he is very pretty, too! I am told by their trainers he has the nicest head of the 3 brothers.

[mbm]

fwiw, with all this talk of gaits - really the most important thing in dressage is trainabliltiy and rideability… fancy gaits are fun but if a rider really wants to get anywhere they need a horse/pony that has a serious work ethic

i think it is awesome that we are seeing more smaller horses/ponies out there…

[Gayle_in_Oregon]

[QUOTE=goodpony;6686601]
I had MP Dartagnan+++// full sister with me–she weren’t no hunter mover not by a long shot–she outscored my Elite Hanno mare at her ISR/OLD NA inspection and went MMB with excellent scores. Her daughter by my pony stallion was absolutely one of the fanciest pony foals I have ever bred. And that one won her USDF Sport Horse Class as a yearling against fillies twice her age and those were warmblood crosses–and they done got beat by an Arabian pony.[/QUOTE]

Heh, you are my facebook friend! I am Gayle of Affinity Farms in Oregon. I am glad to have a a friend with a relative of my horses. Its funny, part of why I bought Fames Reward was to breed dressage ponies! I have not done it yet but it’s too funny that you have done it with the same blood. A lot of how a horse looks/moves under saddle is how they are ridden and trained. Its not easy to do a great job in dressage…it takes alot of dedication. It is also important to have a horse that steps under its center of gravity so it can ‘carry’ itself. And the active hind leg means, well its just there and availble to get the work of carrying done not just pushing. WAY most horse push and dont carry naturally and its hard to teach them to do it. Not impossible, just hard. Active also hints that piaffe will be possible as well as one tempis. So, its critical for the upper levels. Big, pushers can do well enough in the lower levels and there is nothing wrong with that either. It depends what you want, a more recreational horse or an FEI horse.

[Gayle_in_Oregon]

[QUOTE=mbm;6686663]
fwiw, with all this talk of gaits - really the most important thing in dressage is trainabliltiy and rideability… fancy gaits are fun but if a rider really wants to get anywhere they need a horse/pony that has a serious work ethic

i think it is awesome that we are seeing more smaller horses/ponies out there… :)[/QUOTE] No argument here but all the heart in the world will not win without gaits any more. Horse are being bred now with gaits and temprement! It does not have to be one or the other.

[mbm]

no, it doesn’t but Marc still says that temperament is 80% of the game and I believe him but then i am not going to the Olympics anytime soon…

anyway, i felt a bit of sides being taken here so I thought i would just walk in between for a second …

i am editing this to add: that when i say temperament is 80% of the game, i dont mean that a horse with poor conformation and a weak hind end and a great temperament would be easy to train.

I mean an average mover with a good hind end and a great work ethic will be a better bet for most folks as opposed to a flashy mover that has no work ethic …

and remember canter & walk are critical a trot can be developed to a huge degree.

[stripes]

[QUOTE=Gayle in Oregon;6686648]
I did not know Fames’ Rewards’ full brothers in ‘person’ but, I know they were successful stallions. But, I looked at maybe 1,000 stallions to find Fames Reward. He had the elasticity and active hind leg I really insist upon. He has a tremedous top line and long, long shoulder and long long hip as well. Really, he could put a lot of warmbloods to shame. He steps WELL under himself all the time and even at 20 yo he is still elastic. So, his son my 1/2 Arab gelding has mostly got 8-8.5 for gaits in hand in competitions. He has a huge, HUGE walk and swings perfectly through his back in all his gaits. His trot is wonderful. He is undefeated except for once as a baby and he just was too tired after 2 days of showing so that time he was reserve champ. He has beat Dutch, Hanoverians, GOV, ISR, and many other wamblood breeds. He was the highest scored horse of all at one of the Sport Arab shows last spring and he scored way over 80% more than once including the nationals with he average of 2 judges. My handler told me he was the highest scored horse that was not a stallion at the nationals. Dartagan could be better but he is the National CHampion Grand Prix horse this year.

My colt has a lot of candence in his gaits, too.

The Arab trainers who we competed against told me his more dressage type, being uphill in his build and carriage. But, the hunter judges like him too for his overall quality and power. To win the National Champ of course one judge was a hunter judge and the other a dressage judge. I think the hunter judges like his cadence especially well.

I know I have a really, REALLY good stallion in Fames Reward. He is underused on my farm at this point. He should be a dressage sport sire. Oh, he is very pretty, too! I am told by their trainers he has the nicest head of the 3 brothers.[/QUOTE]

I really liked National Fame (one of the 3 brothers) when I saw him years ago. I was interested in a filly by him, very nice stallion who had very nice movement and seemed to produce very good movers. Mark of Fame, very pretty, has produced everything under the sun, from halter to western to dressage. His owner’s are friends of mine, so don’t think I’m picking on this breeding. I’m just pointing out that even though they are trainable, they do not get the scores to be very competitive against all breeds. Of course the HA’s are a different story. These horses are beautiful, Dartagnan is one of the most beautiful horses ever of any breed, but how to keep that and upgrade the movement is what I’m wanting to do :). How do you compare the scores and comments from the open shows vs Arabian shows? I’m well versed to Arabian shows and I’m entering the open world once again and even though I photograph many dressage shows, I haven’t paid much attention the DB classes. It doesn’t surprise me that your colt has done well, he’s essentially a prettier WB.

Also, congrats on finding your boy! I heard about the grey brother, but I’ve never seen him or even heard about his get. Good to hear he’s doing well and breeding some very nice horses.

[Gayle_in_Oregon]

Most of the Arabian Sport Horse shows we have had ‘real’ dressage sport horse judges. That is ones that judge the open shows, too. One show we had a judge who was an Arab judge orignially who got her sport card to do this show. She judged them more as Arabs and less as sport horses more emphasis on head type and high refinement I would say. But, that was one out of 4. The rest were all open judges doing the Arab thing so they scored exactly the same as open shows. And I should say, that my gelding got really good scores in the open shows, too.

Thanks for your nice comments on my half Arab colt but he is much more than a prettier wamblood…he did not beat all the wambloods because he is prettier…he beat them because he moves BETTER and is built BETTER. But, as I have said, my Arab stallion was purchased BECAUSE he is like a good sport horse. I have often said he looks more like an Andalusion or PRE stallion with a prettier head. He is very large boned and has VERY LONG lines, that is shoulder and hip. He has the longest hip of any horse I have. He really is a remarkable horse. All Crabbet and Polish with the best of a lot of very good blood. Everything in his pedigree is a champion and the tail female goes back to one of the most famous and well thought of Arabian mares of her era. In fact she is probably the most famous of her time. So, my colt is better than his mega winning mother. HE has more walk, and more trot. They both have a lot of canter and power. His neck is better applied, and more like his father’s. He is better than his mother in the wither/saddle position. You shold go look at these horses on my facebook page. The gelding is Born on the Bayou. He is bay. Fames Reward, we call him Ahab, produces bay 50% and dark gray 50%.

[goodpony]

I have never met or seen Dartagnon in the flesh but he is competing at I-1 not many horses of any breed even get a hoof in the door at that level. So trainability is there for sure.

With respect to my filly the more I worked with the her the more I really enjoyed working with her. I liked her so much I allowed her current owner to RIDE her–it was the 5th time anyone ever sat on her. She was the type of filly that once connected with the right person would walk through flaming hoops–and that does come from her Arabian mother. IF I ever had to ride into battle–she is the one I want to be sitting on. And I still do!

You all have good points-what I saw in doing the cross with the pony was that I was able to improve the top line, saddle position, and produce a better hind end (no triangle butts here) also added a great deal of bone, depth and substance-over the mother. What we also got was a very elegant/feminine pony with really good feet and horse like gaits-very good gaits/balance and natural athleticism! The inspectors commented on the improvements over the dam at her inspection. I personally believe that my filly will go as far as her owner wants to go–provided she is given age appropriate training and continued opportunity. I believe this is true of most horses.

[stripes]

[QUOTE=Gayle in Oregon;6686740]
Most of the Arabian Sport Horse shows we have had ‘real’ dressage sport horse judges. That is ones that judge the open shows, too. One show we had a judge who was an Arab judge orignially who got her sport card to do this show. She judged them more as Arabs and less as sport horses more emphasis on head type and high refinement I would say. But, that was one out of 4. The rest were all open judges doing the Arab thing so they scored exactly the same as open shows. And I should say, that my gelding got really good scores in the open shows, too.

Thanks for your nice comments on my half Arab colt but he is much more than a prettier wamblood…he did not beat all the wambloods because he is prettier…he beat them because he moves BETTER and is built BETTER. But, as I have said, my Arab stallion was purchased BECAUSE he is like a good sport horse. I have often said he looks more like an Andalusion or PRE stallion with a prettier head. He is very large boned and has VERY LONG lines, that is shoulder and hip. He has the longest hip of any horse I have. He really is a remarkable horse. All Crabbet and Polish with the best of a lot of very good blood. Everything in his pedigree is a champion and the tail female goes back to one of the most famous and well thought of Arabian mares of her era. In fact she is probably the most famous of her time. So, my colt is better than his mega winning mother. HE has more walk, and more trot. They both have a lot of canter and power. His neck is better applied, and more like his father’s. He is better than his mother in the wither/saddle position. You shold go look at these horses on my facebook page. The gelding is Born on the Bayou. He is bay. Fames Reward, we call him Ahab, produces bay 50% and dark gray 50%.[/QUOTE]

Did you read my original post? I’m wanting to talk about improving the Arabian/WB crosses. Somehow I think I’ve offended you which was never my intent. I show Arabians I am well aware of how they work and who judges them. I’m on the National committee for Sport Horse & Dressage. I own an approved Hanoverian Arabian mare and breed Hanoverians that are also HA. I’m a pretty good Sport Horse photgrapher as well and have been published many times due to my correct and dare I say it “pretty” photos. Really I get it. I guess you didn’t look at my own horses in the original post. I applaud you for breeding your own WB cross, however, I do not need a lecture on how your horses are far superior to others. I want to encourage dialogue between people who want to make better horses, not talk down to those who ask questions. I’m also very well versed in Arabian pedigrees and Fame VF shows up a lot in Arabian sporthorses which I find interesting since he was never known for producing the type of movement needed for sport. So I feel it is important to point that out and then dive into the damline’s. My own mare has questionable Arabians in her pedigree, yet she is big moving and more the WB type than her pedigree suggests. I chose her for who she is, not her pedigree, so really stop the lecture I get it.

My questions to you are exactly - Are your open scores comparable to your Arabian show scores when you show In Hand. I ask this due to the Hunter/Dressage judge combo. My filly was High Score at Reg.3 Sport Horse Champs. She out scored several National Champions of past and present, so you are not talking to someone who’s just asking to ask.

[stripes]

[QUOTE=goodpony;6686744]
I have never met or seen Dartagnon in the flesh but he is competing at I-1 not many horses of any breed even get a hoof in the door at that level. So trainability is there for sure.

With respect to my filly the more I worked with the her the more I really enjoyed working with her. I liked her so much I allowed her current owner to RIDE her–it was the 5th time anyone ever sat on her. She was the type of filly that once connected with the right person would walk through flaming hoops–and that does come from her Arabian mother. IF I ever had to ride into battle–she is the one I want to be sitting on. And I still do!

You all have good points-what I saw in doing the cross with the pony was that I was able to improve the top line, saddle position, and produce a better hind end (no triangle butts here) also added a great deal of bone, depth and substance-over the mother. What we also got was a very elegant/feminine pony with really good feet and horse like gaits-very good gaits/balance and natural athleticism! The inspectors commented on the improvements over the dam at her inspection. I personally believe that my filly will go as far as her owner wants to go–provided she is given age appropriate training and continued opportunity. I believe this is true of most horses.[/QUOTE]
Dartagnan is actually competing GP and is the current National Champion in Grand Prix. He’s a very nice horse, but his gaits could be better. So when breeding, I always look at what honestly needs improvement to get me a better horse. That’s just the way I think, sorry if it offends. And Goodpony, I think you need to give your stallion some more credit - I photographed your filly at her inspection, she is lovely and moved more like her sire

[stripes]

[QUOTE=equusaround;6686253]
LOVE the filly!!! I have had one mare owner that bred her champion Arabian mare to my stallion, Gauguin du Cheval 9054. She registered him Half Arab and Swedish. She competes him at HA shows and he cleans up. She has also shown him in USDF breed shows and he holds his own against the warmbloods. His dam is less than 15 hands and the colt is 16.0+ and looks like a slightly smaller boned warmblood. He moves, he jumps and has a great personality. She is having a difficult time selling him however, I think because he is not a full warmblood. She loves him, however and is thinking of doing the cross again. BTW, Gauguin du Cheval is 35% TB and 5% Shagya Arab, which may be partly responsible for the smooth cross. This was the cross at age 2 showing at a USDF breed show. http://s237.beta.photobucket.com/user/teamgauguin/media/GH%20Gauguins%20Paul/WYNDAbreedshow1.jpg.html?sort=6&o=42[/QUOTE]

Thank you! She’s my heart horse. I’m seriously thinking I need to repeat this cross this coming year as her sire isn’t getting any younger. I would be a very happy girl to get another filly.

This gelding looks very nice. Is he under saddle now? I have found that many want to wait until they are being ridden - I think they think due to the Arabian half they aren’t as ridable. I know that changes as soon as they get on one

[goodpony]

Well then there you have it how many horses of any breed do GP? Let alone Purebred Arabians? I’ve never seen him!

His sister did look a lot like him though–and she was a marvelous producer! Producing well over what she herself was-i had seen at least five of her foals over the years. And there is the trick–which one is the producer even if they are the one you would pass over? Its not all in the movement but which one passes it on with greater consistency or even produces above and beyond what they themselves are. The answer to that is in the pedigree I believe. Little man is a PRODUCER (his middle name is xerox) but so was mom.

[NoDQhere]

We have used a couple of Arabian mares in our program with good success. They were a mother and daughter and were bred to Meisterwind, a purebred Trakehner who competed through Grand Prix Dressage. We kept the older mare’s daughters to breed to breed to Lion King a Hanoverian of mostly Trakehner breeding. The colts we grew up for sale. We have been very happy with the results, especially the second generation, 25% Arab, 75% WB. We have gotten great canters, very good jumps, and nice size. The first picture is a F1 cross, gelding by Meisterwind. The next 3 are F2 crosses sired by Lion King, out of RF Mariachi, by Meisterwind. She was graded Premium by RPSI. The gelding with the handler in the picture was the co-highest scoring colt in NA for the RPSI. He is 16.2 and turning into a pretty nice Hunter. The last picture is an F1 gelding by Meisterwind, out of the younger mare. We were hoping for a filly, but he is pretty nice.

The older mare is Sarah Song, sired by Caligastro, by *El Mokhtar, out of a mare by Hamsar. Her daughter, Summers Song was sired by Halim El Kateef. They were both decent sized mares at 15.2.

[stripes]

Patty thanks so much for posting and with all the breeding info! This is what I was hoping to get when I started the thread. You have some lovely horses! I think the Trak cross is quite nice and usually turn out very well. Great to see the F2, as that’s where I’m headed.