Let's talk about Arabian/WB crosses

[amzngallison]

[QUOTE=SportArab;6698896]
Endurance is generally thought of as a function of heart/lung. Mitochondria are very important since they are the power plants of the cells. I would guess that Arabians have exceptional mitochondria.

I’ll look for the cavalry study for you. I found it interesting myself.[/QUOTE]

Endurance really does not have anything to do with the “quality” of mitochondria. As a vet student I have actually NEVER heard of anyone claiming that mitochondria can be “exceptional” or less than exceptional. Yes the number of mitochondria affects a horse’s ability to be an efficient endurance mount, but you want more in your skeletal muscle fibers and you want to increase them in size. But last I checked there was no difference in quality of mitochondria.
When a horse starts training for endurance riding, yes you will see a change in mitochondria but it won’t be in the heart or lungs, it will be in the skeletal muscle. The heart changes to become a more efficient pump by decreasing the heart rate but increasing the stroke volume which changes the cardiac output, and reducing blood viscosity to reduce turbulence. Nothing changes about the mitochondria in the heart. So much more goes into making the heart an efficient pump than the mitochondria in its cells.
But a big thing that influences the endurance of an animal is the type of skeletal muscle fibers they have. Most endurance horses have slow twitch fibers because they are fairly resistant to fatigue which is critical for endurance. The only issue with the type of muscles is that if you are predisposed to have more fast twitch (like for sprinting) there isn’t really much you can do to change that. So it could be that Arabian horses simply are predisposed to more slow twitch fibers making them good endurance mounts but without any research into that matter no one can really say.

[stripes]

amzngallison, thank you so much for posting! You said what I wanted to say only you said it better. I think its important for people to understand the qualities that Arabians bring to the table for creating sport horses and endurance is one of the most important.

[SportArab]

How well your mitochondria work is something that you can inherit - and also something that can be impacted by the environment.

In my other life, I am a long-time health reporter/writer, just fyi.

[QUOTE=amzngallison;6701201]
Endurance really does not have anything to do with the “quality” of mitochondria. As a vet student I have actually NEVER heard of anyone claiming that mitochondria can be “exceptional” or less than exceptional. Yes the number of mitochondria affects a horse’s ability to be an efficient endurance mount, but you want more in your skeletal muscle fibers and you want to increase them in size. But last I checked there was no difference in quality of mitochondria.
When a horse starts training for endurance riding, yes you will see a change in mitochondria but it won’t be in the heart or lungs, it will be in the skeletal muscle. The heart changes to become a more efficient pump by decreasing the heart rate but increasing the stroke volume which changes the cardiac output, and reducing blood viscosity to reduce turbulence. Nothing changes about the mitochondria in the heart. So much more goes into making the heart an efficient pump than the mitochondria in its cells.
But a big thing that influences the endurance of an animal is the type of skeletal muscle fibers they have. Most endurance horses have slow twitch fibers because they are fairly resistant to fatigue which is critical for endurance. The only issue with the type of muscles is that if you are predisposed to have more fast twitch (like for sprinting) there isn’t really much you can do to change that. So it could be that Arabian horses simply are predisposed to more slow twitch fibers making them good endurance mounts but without any research into that matter no one can really say.[/QUOTE]

[DawnJL]

There have been studies on muscle fiber type that show strong correlations with breed and performance type. These correlations are part of the knowledge base of equine sports medicine. I had oversimplified the muscle types in my earlier posts for brevity, but there are actually three main types often labelled as types I, IIa, and IIb. A plethora of articles and textbooks exist which describe the physiology of these fiber types, their correlations with breed and with specific athletic abilities, and the degree to which conditioning programs can alter the proportions. One very good book that includes this information is Dr. Hilary Clayton’s Conditioning Sport Horses which can be found here. I recently loaned my copy so I can’t reference it directly at the moment.)

One overview can be found here: Tufts article on QH vs TB (includes mentions of Arabians)

Here’s one abstract relating to differences in proportions of muscle fiber type between breeds (in this case TB, Arabian, and Andalusians since it was a Spanish study)

Here’s another specific to Arabians: study abstract

Another overview which includes mention that multiple factors are involved in determining performance, but that the observed breed differences in muscle fiber composition contributes to breed suitability for particular performance tasks in conjunction with other traits of course (plus training, nutrition, etc.).

Certainly, athletic performance ability derives from an interaction of a multitude of factors, but it worthwhile examining the full spectrum of heritable traits that may be of import. Since stamina/endurance is valued in the Arabian breed, it makes sense that one of the reasons for periodic infusions of Arabian blood into WBs would be to increase the stamina/endurance in lines that would benefit from that.

Gotta run to do chores, but I hope that clarifies my earlier post on muscle fiber and links to breeds.

[SendenHorse]

I have a very good quality polish arab X dressage horse and I consider the arabs to bring a lot to the table. I wanted a WB x arab but I am thrilled with my horse.

I personally don’t enjoy riding a larger wb and I appreciate the sensitivity of the arab-- they physically react quickly to the seat and hand. I do not get tired riding this horse. He is a good size for my leg and I like the wider/short flat back.

That said, I have seen and ridden a lot of arabs (and owned previously a purebred mare) and typically they would NOT be my first choice due to conformation/movement and tight back. I will however have at least some arab blood in my dressage horses. The key is a nice set pelvis and hocks that step under, not outward as in a county pleasure type horse.

The lines that I have seen produce horses that do well in dressage seem to be: Khemosabi, Muscat, Aladdin -types. Old polish and Russian. Not generally spooky and more sporthorse types.

My horse is scoring mid 60s and low 70s in his first shows with me, I expect bigger things in 2012 now that we have had more time together. Dressage is really easy for him (overall).

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg141/cuatx555/Riot/Riot_General_photos_/dsc02913.jpg

[SportArab]

Yes, I would agree that you need smooth muscle for endurance and Quarter Horses for the most part have much less of this. I don’t think you’re going to find a huge difference between Arabians and Thoroughbreds, though this is certainly very individual.

If you consider just the strains of Arabians, I’d bet you’d find a lot more smooth muscle in the Saklavi and a lot less in the Kuhailans (not sure of the spelling of either of those). Same is true in Thoroughbreds. You see sprinters that clearly have a lot of fast twitch muscle and then the horses that win longer races like the Belmont, with much less.

But ultimately, I still believe that the key for Arabians is in their mitochondria - and this would make a great study for some up-and-coming vetrinary researcher.

And speaking of research - you might note that the article you cited, allowed that their results were not statistically significant. So, not sure how much credence I’d put in that.

If I have the time later, I’ll do a medline search and see what’s out there vis a vis muscle fiber and endurance.

[QUOTE=Dawn J-L;6702412]
There have been studies on muscle fiber type that show strong correlations with breed and performance type. These correlations are part of the knowledge base of equine sports medicine. I had oversimplified the muscle types in my earlier posts for brevity, but there are actually three main types often labelled as types I, IIa, and IIb. A plethora of articles and textbooks exist which describe the physiology of these fiber types, their correlations with breed and with specific athletic abilities, and the degree to which conditioning programs can alter the proportions. One very good book that includes this information is Dr. Hilary Clayton’s Conditioning Sport Horses which can be found here. I recently loaned my copy so I can’t reference it directly at the moment.)

One overview can be found here: Tufts article on QH vs TB (includes mentions of Arabians)

Here’s one abstract relating to differences in proportions of muscle fiber type between breeds (in this case TB, Arabian, and Andalusians since it was a Spanish study)

Here’s another specific to Arabians: study abstract

Another overview which includes mention that multiple factors are involved in determining performance, but that the observed breed differences in muscle fiber composition contributes to breed suitability for particular performance tasks in conjunction with other traits of course (plus training, nutrition, etc.).

Certainly, athletic performance ability derives from an interaction of a multitude of factors, but it worthwhile examining the full spectrum of heritable traits that may be of import. Since stamina/endurance is valued in the Arabian breed, it makes sense that one of the reasons for periodic infusions of Arabian blood into WBs would be to increase the stamina/endurance in lines that would benefit from that.

Gotta run to do chores, but I hope that clarifies my earlier post on muscle fiber and links to breeds. :-)[/QUOTE]

[SportArab]

Here’s one of mine as a yearling:Kleopatra (Budweiser x Khassiopeia).

She has grown into a lovely mare that I am just starting to ride. She’s got the M. Monroe swoosh as she walks and a super elastic trot. She’s about 16.0 h now and has completely greyed out. I will be presenting her to the GOV next summer for breeding approval. She is GOV registered.

[SportArab]

Your mare is so CUTE!!! Qredit looks like a hot mover. What’s his canter like?

[QUOTE=allanglos;6699886]
Oh, and I have an Arab mare in foal to a WB now. Due in April. Mare is Ben Rabba/*El Paso granddaughter. Stallion is Qredit by Quaterback.[/QUOTE]

[themarchcat]

Here is a video of Qredit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgHqkPuV5hs

[stripes]

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;6702441]
I have a very good quality polish arab X dressage horse and I consider the arabs to bring a lot to the table. I wanted a WB x arab but I am thrilled with my horse.

I personally don’t enjoy riding a larger wb and I appreciate the sensitivity of the arab-- they physically react quickly to the seat and hand. I do not get tired riding this horse. He is a good size for my leg and I like the wider/short flat back.

That said, I have seen and ridden a lot of arabs (and owned previously a purebred mare) and typically they would NOT be my first choice due to conformation/movement and tight back. I will however have at least some arab blood in my dressage horses. The key is a nice set pelvis and hocks that step under, not outward as in a county pleasure type horse.

The lines that I have seen produce horses that do well in dressage seem to be: Khemosabi, Muscat, Aladdin -types. Old polish and Russian. Not generally spooky and more sporthorse types.

My horse is scoring mid 60s and low 70s in his first shows with me, I expect bigger things in 2012 now that we have had more time together. Dressage is really easy for him (overall).

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg141/cuatx555/Riot/Riot_General_photos_/dsc02913.jpg[/QUOTE]

I think you are going to begin seeing very different breeding in successful Arabian dressage horses now that there are breeder’s breeding specifically for dressage. More and more Crabbet as they are very good behind with much more expression in their gaits and great trainability. My experience has been that the Russian bloodlines are not as easily ridden in dressage by amateurs and the Muscat specifically are not that great behind due to their angles, same with many of the Khemo bred horses, they tend to be out behind naturally which makes it more difficult to get them engaged. The Khemo’s are very trainable which is why they have done well, especially at the lower levels. The combo of Polish/Crabbet is proving to be a great cross for dressage.

I know I posted a pic my filly in the OP, and here she is under saddle, this is her 2nd week in training and she had about 5 rides on her when this was taken. Her dam’s breeding is a blend of Polish/Russian/Crabbet with a bit of Spanish & Domestic breeding. She carries *Aladdinn thru her sire line & *Elimar thru her damline. Her tail female is the same as Raffon. This mare moves like a WB and does have the look of a lighter WB, which lends well to breeding to the more modern WB stallions.

Chanel (Escudo II x Caraechstrodinair)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4119979955853&set=a.1096467809939.2015506.1173902979&type=3&theater

Caraechstrodinair (Echstrordinairy x SA Portia) She scored a 7.33 at her AHS Inspection.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1100568872463&set=a.1096467809939.2015506.1173902979&type=3&theater

And her pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/caraechstrodinair

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=stripes;6703015]
I think you are going to begin seeing very different breeding in successful Arabian dressage horses now that there are breeder’s breeding specifically for dressage. More and more Crabbet as they are very good behind with much more expression in their gaits and great trainability. My experience has been that the Russian bloodlines are not as easily ridden in dressage by amateurs and the Muscat specifically are not that great behind due to their angles, same with many of the Khemo bred horses, they tend to be out behind naturally which makes it more difficult to get them engaged. [/QUOTE]

Yes, of course can’t beat a good Crabbet bred horse… I was talking about arabs I have seen successful in dressage (owned by friends) and/or ridden personally or owned. I admittedly am not in the “know” about arabs although I know a lot of people who show arabs I don’t get into pedigree analysis. I bought my horse because he was talented, not his breeding per say. The Aladdin/aladdabaskin(?) horses I know are very hot, not ammature horses, but they are older now so maybe things have improved. VERY talented in dressage, and not just for the breed. GP all the way. (I don’t tend to throw that term around as some do).

[Tempi.Change]

It is my opinion that 2 complimentary horse’s, 1 of which is 1/2 or 3/4 Arabian with the “float”, suspension and exquisite head onto a WB would be a fabulous cross.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=SportArab;6702546]
Here’s one of mine as a yearling:Kleopatra (Budweiser x Khassiopeia).

She has grown into a lovely mare that I am just starting to ride. She’s got the M. Monroe swoosh as she walks and a super elastic trot. She’s about 16.0 h now and has completely greyed out. I will be presenting her to the GOV next summer for breeding approval. She is GOV registered.[/QUOTE]

Lovely! And who are you breeding her to?

My F2 by Feiner Stern also has a wonderful walk - walks through her entire body, with wonderful cadence, relaxation, and good overstep - and she is very swingy in the topline in the trot. She really uses her entire body in all three gaits - she is NOT just a “leg-mover.”

[SportArab]

Yes, my girl, too, uses her entire body - and is soft and relaxed in the back even when she’s nervous about stuff going on around her.

I’m not sure who I want to breed her to yet. She’s a really nice individual and I have to think on what it is I want to achieve in the next generation. If Feiner Stern were around today, I’d have bred her to him in a flash. But that may be because I just loved him as an individual.

What do you think about Wild Dance, btw?

[QUOTE=DownYonder;6703382]
Lovely! And who are you breeding her to?

My F2 by Feiner Stern also has a wonderful walk - walks through her entire body, with wonderful cadence, relaxation, and good overstep - and she is very swingy in the topline in the trot. She really uses her entire body in all three gaits - she is NOT just a “leg-mover.” :D[/QUOTE]

[SportArab]

I like Caraechstrodinair quite a bit. She’s got a lovely hind end, nice length of neck and is very well balanced. Out of curiousity, how tall is she?

As for the Russian horses, I always think of EA Novette. She was quite lovely.

[QUOTE=stripes;6703015]
I think you are going to begin seeing very different breeding in successful Arabian dressage horses now that there are breeder’s breeding specifically for dressage. More and more Crabbet as they are very good behind with much more expression in their gaits and great trainability. My experience has been that the Russian bloodlines are not as easily ridden in dressage by amateurs and the Muscat specifically are not that great behind due to their angles, same with many of the Khemo bred horses, they tend to be out behind naturally which makes it more difficult to get them engaged. The Khemo’s are very trainable which is why they have done well, especially at the lower levels. The combo of Polish/Crabbet is proving to be a great cross for dressage.

I know I posted a pic my filly in the OP, and here she is under saddle, this is her 2nd week in training and she had about 5 rides on her when this was taken. Her dam’s breeding is a blend of Polish/Russian/Crabbet with a bit of Spanish & Domestic breeding. She carries *Aladdinn thru her sire line & *Elimar thru her damline. Her tail female is the same as Raffon. This mare moves like a WB and does have the look of a lighter WB, which lends well to breeding to the more modern WB stallions.

Chanel (Escudo II x Caraechstrodinair)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4119979955853&set=a.1096467809939.2015506.1173902979&type=3&theater

Caraechstrodinair (Echstrordinairy x SA Portia) She scored a 7.33 at her AHS Inspection.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1100568872463&set=a.1096467809939.2015506.1173902979&type=3&theater

And her pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/caraechstrodinair[/QUOTE]

[stripes]

[QUOTE=SportArab;6703852]
I like Caraechstrodinair quite a bit. She’s got a lovely hind end, nice length of neck and is very well balanced. Out of curiousity, how tall is she?

As for the Russian horses, I always think of EA Novette. She was quite lovely.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, she’s definitely the Queen. She’s just over 15h, by 1cm. But she rides much bigger, she has really big strides and scored 8’s for impulsion & elasticity at her inspection.

To further the discussion on breeding and bloodlines, I’ve always been very drawn to the Russian horses, my first Arabian dressage horse was mostly Russian/Polish. I was out horsed with him. First off the Russians are bigger and leggier, mine was an honest 16.2h, and they tend to be much harder to ride for ammy’s in dressage. I’ve had lots of conversations with others riding them at Arabian shows, hard to get beyond 1st Level unless you are a very good and gutsy rider. Mine was awesome until he had to use his brain, then he’d shut down and have temper tantrums. I was known for clearing out the warm up arena when we would start warming up for our tests - LOL. I have since researched and learned what works for me. I have found that a good dose of Crabbet blood will level off the stupid heat and increase the trainablity. Carli has the stupid heat, when things get mentally tough she starts to get tense and hot (blowy, tight backed and lack of attention). I bred her to Magic Aulrab just to see if I could get my mare with more expressive gaits, what I got is nothing short of AWESOME! Just wish I had a filly vs a colt. I was trying for a replacement for her. I’ll do it again in 2014 and pray to the fertility gods for a filly. All this said, she has crossed very well with the stallions that I chose. After the Landkoenig colt I have no worries that Carli will refine an Elephant. I thought I’d be breeding to White Star this coming season, but that is not in the cards. So Escudo II is her man again.

[SportArab]

I think the Crabbet horses are super and many of the Russian horses also have Crabbet in their pedigrees. One problem with marketing to the amateur owners is that they still want the big, big-moving horses even if they can’t ride them.

I would say that both my Landkoenig fillies had very rideable looking gaits. I’m just starting the one I kept and will know soon if she actually is as nice to sit as she looks.

As for disposition… well, you really don’t know about that till you actually start riding and pushing them on. Some can seem completely lovely and sweet - and then you ask for something hard and now you’ve got an argument. My line in the sand is whether the horse is willing to push the argument so far that he/she will hurt self in order to win.

For trainablity, I would say that my Grandom mare came out best. She’s a little hotter than I might like, in a perfect world, but she learns everything I throw at her with lightening speed. I’m hoping to be up on her and the Landkoenig mare this spring. Right now they’re both working on the longe in side reins.

[QUOTE=stripes;6703907]
Thank you, she’s definitely the Queen. She’s just over 15h, by 1cm. But she rides much bigger, she has really big strides and scored 8’s for impulsion & elasticity at her inspection.

To further the discussion on breeding and bloodlines, I’ve always been very drawn to the Russian horses, my first Arabian dressage horse was mostly Russian/Polish. I was out horsed with him. First off the Russians are bigger and leggier, mine was an honest 16.2h, and they tend to be much harder to ride for ammy’s in dressage. I’ve had lots of conversations with others riding them at Arabian shows, hard to get beyond 1st Level unless you are a very good and gutsy rider. Mine was awesome until he had to use his brain, then he’d shut down and have temper tantrums. I was known for clearing out the warm up arena when we would start warming up for our tests - LOL. I have since researched and learned what works for me. I have found that a good dose of Crabbet blood will level off the stupid heat and increase the trainablity. Carli has the stupid heat, when things get mentally tough she starts to get tense and hot (blowy, tight backed and lack of attention). I bred her to Magic Aulrab just to see if I could get my mare with more expressive gaits, what I got is nothing short of AWESOME! Just wish I had a filly vs a colt. I was trying for a replacement for her. I’ll do it again in 2014 and pray to the fertility gods for a filly. All this said, she has crossed very well with the stallions that I chose. After the Landkoenig colt I have no worries that Carli will refine an Elephant. I thought I’d be breeding to White Star this coming season, but that is not in the cards. So Escudo II is her man again.[/QUOTE]

[stripes]

You’re talking about Hanoverian bloodlines and I’m talking about Arabian bloodlines - LOL

Jumper bloodlines tend to be on the hotter side, exception would be Landkoenig. I have chosen 2 Jumper bred stallions to cross on my mare because of their proven trainability to be ammy horses. But I’m mixing them with HOT Arabian bloodlines, and I’m getting hotter, lighter with good gaits and HIGH trainabilty! My Escudo II filly has great gaits for me - if she was 16h, not sure I could ride her as well as I do. Her smaller size is a definite plus for me as I’m vertically challenged with a short waist. She has very expressive WB gaits in a small package - right now she’s 14.3h at 3.

The Landkoenig colt doesn’t have as much expression at the trot, but his canter is much bigger. He is also going to be a lot bigger, should top out at around 16h. His good nature and ease of taking on new things will be a plus for an ammy wanting an easier horse to compete on. I think that is what the Arabian really brings to the table - a lightness and ease of riding. They are more responsive and do not need an iron leg to keep them going. =)

[SportArab]

My problem, as a breeder, is that most folks who are shopping for Arab-Warmblood crosses want big - and petite ladies, mind you. They want at least 16 h.

And many of the warmblood registries penalize the shorter horses. My Grandom mare is probably close to 15.2, but was downgraded for being “small” in her inspection. My sense is that the GOV now has a minimum height for MMB mares and I’d guess that’s around 15.3h.

I would agree that the Arabians can bring a lightness and a desire to go forward to the equation (which is a very good thing), but it’s not something I’d count on since I’ve seen plenty that aren’t quite as sensitive to the leg as one might want.

OTOH, one thing I see consistently in my warmblood crosses is a high senstivity to the seat/weight aids. Even my big guy, who will blow off my legs from time to time is extraordinarily attentive to even the tiniest shifts in weight.

Here he is at age 3.

[QUOTE=stripes;6704016]
You’re talking about Hanoverian bloodlines and I’m talking about Arabian bloodlines - LOL

Jumper bloodlines tend to be on the hotter side, exception would be Landkoenig. I have chosen 2 Jumper bred stallions to cross on my mare because of their proven trainability to be ammy horses. But I’m mixing them with HOT Arabian bloodlines, and I’m getting hotter, lighter with good gaits and HIGH trainabilty! My Escudo II filly has great gaits for me - if she was 16h, not sure I could ride her as well as I do. Her smaller size is a definite plus for me as I’m vertically challenged with a short waist. She has very expressive WB gaits in a small package - right now she’s 14.3h at 3.

The Landkoenig colt doesn’t have as much expression at the trot, but his canter is much bigger. He is also going to be a lot bigger, should top out at around 16h. His good nature and ease of taking on new things will be a plus for an ammy wanting an easier horse to compete on. I think that is what the Arabian really brings to the table - a lightness and ease of riding. They are more responsive and do not need an iron leg to keep them going. =)[/QUOTE]

[stripes]

I see the trend heading to smaller horses for us vertically challenged peeps. The highest selling ammy horse at the Pacific Sporthorse Selection Auction was a 15.1h Hotline daughter. She created quite the bidding war and sold for 34k. She was 4yr. and green, but her size and her unflappable disposition was very attractive to many. She was the most popular =). Also, GRP are seeing their popularity rise, so I do not believe for a second that everyone is looking for larger horses.

Interesting that a smaller mare would score less because of size. The 15.1h mare I just mentioned is a SPS Hanoverian mare. Since I do go to many inspections I have seen on many occasions a smaller mare with the highest scores, including GOV.