Anybody here into positive reinforcement training? I’m certainly not an R+ zealot, as I’m born and raised in the traditional h/j world. But, I have started playing with it on the ground (using a clicker), and my horse seems to enjoy this “game.” It’s been useful in teaching him better ground manners, too.
I recently audited a clinic about using R+ principles under saddle. That was new to me, and interesting.
Curious if anybody on here uses R+ and to what extent.
Get out the box wine and the popcorn and fasten your seat belts… it’s going to get bumpy.
There was a pretty long and sometimes heated debate about this not too long ago.
I’m terrible at searches but I am sure a savvy COTH poster will provide a link.
Have fun
at times it becomes who is training who
We use clicker training on the dogs, goats and some of the horses. We had one gelding that we trained like our scent dog to find people, he was very good at locating the targeted person.
The goats responded well to the training when they wanted.
Most of our horses caught on quickly to understand do this and get that desired treat but I think they trained us to become a treat dispenser
I went down the R+ rabbit hole a few years and my first awareness after the introduction was “how the heck have I been training horses for 30 years and never took a deep dive into animal training concepts?” Then ran into the story of the famous woman 50 years ago or so working w marine mammals and how the animals just left if they used pressure - negative reinforcement - whatever you want to call it.
BUT, with a whistle and fish they finally had a moment where a dolphin “got it” that they wanted creativity and all of a sudden the dolphin did a flip - (whistle/fish) and then offered going backwards on its tail (whistle then fish) - then offered a double flip… you get the point. That is profound.
So what I’ve come to with R+ is it’s a way to have a relationship like agility dogs - they’re INTO IT. It’s fun. It triggers the seeking and curiosity reflex. It’s how we all learn better. When it’s fun and positive. So it’s powerful that way.
Now with that said…it has to be done right. Your timing must be impeccable. You learn to be fully present and cluck or click at the moment you are reinforcing whatever you want. Must manage food mugging (I only use timothy hay pellets). If they are food aggressive you teach them first they ONLY get the food reward when they are respectful and ask away from your body. And you’ll make mistakes. But have fun. Horse training can be serious and so full of correction. Yuck for the animal.
People that dismiss it don’t understand it. AND, it’s gaining the respect it deserves every day.
I went through Mustang Maddy’s HCA course and she has put together an academic level quality program of education. I ordered Mary Kitzmiller’s DVD on clicker training and it’s well done. I watched hours and hours of Mustang Maddy’s free videos on her youtube channel. And on and on. Shawna Karrasch - Alexandra Kurland. Those gals were the early birds laying the ground. Lots of resources out there.
For free, you can watch a Mary Kitzmiller clinic on the subject she presented at this years Road to the Horse. Mary is a former pro reining trainer, Road to the Horse competitor, etc and the clinic is well done.
You can joint Pluto TV for free and do a search - 2022 Road to the Horse and her clinic starts around the 20 minute mark. You have sit through some commercials. It’s well done. See what you think.
Also a H/J person, I dove in earlier this year because I had a really difficult pony. It transformed our relationship and his whole attitude - I don’t think he’d ever had interactions with humans that were pleasant for him instead of stressful and overwhelming. For example: he was awful about picking his feet up for months, I tried everything, and after a couple weeks of working on it with R+ he was lifting/offering the hoof when I tapped his knee/hock with my fingers. He was a really complicated little dude and it worked wonders for him.
Now I do a bit of it with pretty much all the green horses but generally I just load the clicker and teach neutral position/manners, then use it to problem-solve particular issues - standing in cross ties, lifting feet, fly spray, etc. I admittedly use it in a limited way but it’s nice to have as another tool in the toolbox.
Shawna Karrasch is doing a clinic in my area this fall so I am definitely going to try to attend.
Shawna Karrasch was the clinician I just audited :). She’s really great in my opinion. I think it’s cool that she’s working full time with a h/j trainer now.
After working for 10 years with marine mammals, she started working with horses via John and Beezie Madden. They endorse her. So heck, if it’s good enough for Beezie Madden, I certainly won’t write it off!
Well, you have Morgans.
I have done some R+ with my Morgan mare, but she gets very, very anxious about getting her treat. She gets wiggly, and “wait” is hard for her to understand. The most fun, I guess, was just getting her to follow me around without being led. I never got too far with it, mostly because I needed a trainer to help me. Never mind all my psych classes, lab instructor experience etc. Rats are very different than horses! But I know people with Morgans who are having a lot of success with R+.
Agree. Far too many people dabble without seriously investigating nuances and procedures. Not to mention that the understanding of the concepts within the workaday communities is evolving continuously. The burden is on the human to conduct training is concise precise and understandable Ways. If you have a personality that thrives on ever increasing complexity you may find it very endlessly engaging. But if you don’t want to keep going ever deeper down the rabbit hole and you want something short and sweet then you’re likely to be disappointed/turned into a tree dispenser. Alexandra Kurland has a podcast and she also does online clinics for anyone who wants some really highly skilled coaching.
Shawna Karrasch did a video lesson for the Morgan Youth Clubs
yes Morgans are quick learners for the most part Mostly you only need to teach them something once then its on to the next. We often joke that all one needs to do to train a Morgan is to give them the book and a few days then that’s it
Thanks - I’ll look for that podcast. Yes, what you say is so spot on. I’ve also valued learning to be SO present in the moment for R+ and applying that to R- and becoming even better at the release. That nanosecond they give I reward with a release.
Thanks Clanter! I’ve watched hours of her stuff and love her energy and experience. Will watch soon!
grand daughters were invited guest demonstrators at a Mary Hunter equine clicker training clinic…with their Goats … to show the horse owners attending that even a goat can be trained
The girls have taught their goats about a million tricks and they can preform as actors in short plays. Some day the TV show the girls and their goats were on will be aired, the show is an offshoot of the old David Letterman Stupid Animal Tricks
I started adding it in a little over a year ago, mostly on the ground. I’ve only done R+ with a couple horses but they’ve all become much politer around food, especially the nippy/food aggressive one! I think it’s also really interesting for them, they’ve become more engaged and interested in the groundwork sessions.
Though I don’t ride with a clicker or food, I also noticed that my rides were a lot more productive after adding in a verbal marker, even without having the food reinforcement, which was an unexpected bonus.
I totally agree! I actually caught myself today doing something arse-backwards that many people do…
Horsey picked up and maintained a lovely canter. I then told him to whoa and I gave him a big pet and praise for his lovely canter. Then I realized what I had just done…I had rewarded him for the downward transition/walking instead of the canter. Oops! So like you said, the principle of applying reward/release at the right nanosecond is paramount…and the R+ is improving my timing 
Yes it is incredibly clarifying for the horses to develop an understanding that you can precisely communicate when they’ve done the correct thing. You can call this a Bingo Cue even without any food reinforcement.
Please do share some videos! We want to see what is possible with goats!
But I could see the value in what you did. Your horse offers a lovely canter and you reward by transitioning down instead of him/her cantering and cantering and not knowing exactly what you want because you didn’t reinforce it one way or another. I see us pondering on these things AS the journey.
We’ll make mistakes but it’s AWESOME to be working though these things instead of …sad to say…people we see with their animals or children where they just beat them up. Right? I’ll gladly make all these mistakes with the goal of what is positively possible.
I just had my mustang in the wash stall and he’s come so far in relaxing in there. At one point I clucked just to reinforce his calm and willingness to ground tie. He turns and focuses on me KNOWING what I’d just “said” was YES! You are a good boy! It’s a communication in addition to saying “good!”
It’s that you have to “mark” it. Cluck. Whatever it is you use to say YES that’s what I want.
That’s how you tell your horse THAT canter is what I want. You don’t even have to deliver hay pellets or a treat. Just the noise YOU use to say that’s it is enough. Probably ideally in the beginning you DO deliver hay pellets.
Have ya’ll watched Mary Kitzmiller’s clicker training clinic at Road to the Horse this year? You can join Pluto TV for free and then do a search - 2022 Road to the Horse. She starts at the 20 min mark or so. She even shows a bit of how she shaped Remi’s canter.
I’ve done quite a bit of R+ work, on the ground and under saddle, with my homebred. Starting with halter training all the way through starting under saddle. I find actual marking to be less useful under saddle at speeds faster than the walk. YMMV
It’s not the holy grail but it’s not bull corn either.
Based on my experience, I would say the biggest pitfalls of R+ are: The possibility that a horse’s drive to get the click can camouflage anxiety resulting in training progressing too quickly and a build up of unresolved anxiety. Operant behavior can get frustrating and can be dangerous.
Based on my experience, I would say the biggest advantages of R+ are: It’s entirely possible to train a horse to like something that horse previously avoided at all costs. The horses enjoy it; a lot. It enabled me to start my first colt without dying 
Some horse / handler pairs have different outcomes. My horse lost his ever loving mind over the mat work in AK’s program. Other folks say it’s the best thing since saddles.
here is an audition tape they made a few years ago, pretty corny but when you have 12 years writing their own performance
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