Levade, capriole, courbette, etc, in the Dressage ring?

The classical jumps should never be in competition and no decent classical master would EVER suggest such a thing. Some things should never be a part of competition.

And no, actually, Lipizanners are not the only horses that can do school jumps, just look at the Warmbloods that do school jumps in the Cadre Noir for proof of that. That only Lipizanners could do school jumps is just another one of those things people repeat until they believe it.

The point is, that these things are a gift only a few horses want to do, and have an interest and tendency to do, and only those horses should be doing them. If there was a competition, too many people would force their horses to do these things.

Leaving them OUT of competition was the wisest thing any of the great classical trainers ever did.

And oh - those early dressage tests first done at the Olympics were at about second level, and most early test designers didn’t even want passage and piaffe in the tests!

[QUOTE=slc2;3695946]
The point is, that these things are a gift only a few horses want to do, and have an interest and tendency to do, and only those horses should be doing them. If there was a competition, too many people would force their horses to do these things.[/QUOTE]
Couldn’t one say the same thing about GP dressage? That only a few horses have the gift to compete at that level? Or are you suddenly one of those people who thinks that any horse can do GP? :lol: At any rate, it is well-established that you should be schooling one level above what you are currently showing. This implies that all GP riders should be schooling levade, since it is the natural progression from piaffe. I’m not talking about courbette or capriole, which are highly specialized movements. If the horse is not capable of levade (either due to poor training or physical limitations), then how in good conscience can you compete at the GP level?

The decision to end the recognized levels at GP was an arbitrary one. If 4th level had been chosen as the stop point, then I’m sure people would be saying how dangerous the current FEI movements are.

[QUOTE=slc2;3695946]
And no, actually, Lipizanners are not the only horses that can do school jumps, just look at the Warmbloods that do school jumps in the Cadre Noir for proof of that. That only Lipizanners could do school jumps is just another one of those things people repeat until they believe it.[/QUOTE]
You are correct, there is no inherent reason why a QH or a WB would not be able to perform the airs. But certain types of horses have been purpose-bred for that level of training, and it can make things easier if you set yourself up with all of the advantages. :wink:

Hunter Princess chiming in: in the video, linked earlier, the horse is doing a levade. What makes it different from a plain rear in that circumstance? I thought it was flexion of the hocks which that horse does not seem to be doing any of. Similarly, there was zero suspension in the circle-y piaffe. I don’t profess to be able to do most of this on purpose. :lol: My horse failed out of dressage school somewhere around second/third level, so I have some buttons and can do some tempi changes when the two of us are so inclined, but I really know very little about competition dressage.

That was actually the courbette.

Here’s a better page:

http://www.cadrenoir.fr/en_Courbette

OE: There’s actually a movement in which the horse rears and hops forward on its hind legs but I can’t remember the name of it.

Every healthy horse can perform ALL of the dressage movements correctly (including the airs above the ground) from the day they are born.

Competition dressage went a much different rout than classical dressage. Competition horses today are generally not ridden or trained with the degree of calmness, balance and engagement required for the levade, or even basic classical work.

I agree that any horse can perform the “airs” – all of them – at play, and they often do. The movements of the playing horse were the basis of Haute Ecole. My Arab could levade – and once did so under saddle. My warmblood mare is capable of spectacular Haute Ecole movements at play. She can perform perfect caprioles, ballotades, croupades, courbettes, and a super-lofty passage.

Not when I WANT her to, of course, just when SHE wants to!

I think there are many GP horses who could perform an “air” or two. But outside of the Cadre Noir, the SRS, and a very few other schools or individuals, who knows how to teach them?

http://www.cadrenoir.fr/images/sources/044.jpg

OK now that we have really established I have no clue what I am talking about, can someone explain that to me?

I have just started having training for advanced longreining techniques with my 3 yr old Welsh Cob Colt. I want to be able to teach him from the ground before I start riding him.

Our first lesson was Friday. He can already do shoulder in and some leg yeild and we were perfecting this when a rider came up the road riding one horse and leading another.
My horse erupted into a spontaneous Levade.

The Classical Trainer laughed and said “My work here is done”

I am obviously not wanting to to teach airs above the ground but its clear he can already do them himself.

Now back to Piaffe and Passage :slight_smile:

Jumping around in the pasture has nothing to do with school jumps. It’s a very, very bad idea to assume since a horse bucks and runs around in the pasture that it can do this stuff. That’s ANOTHER reason why it’s not in tests, because too many people would assume ‘oh sure, my horse can do that!’ And if they DON’T assume it, someone will be at hand to tell them so!

It’s another classical air. The horse has gotten somewhat out of position in the pillars, but he’s still kicking up just as asked.

There are even those in the Spanish Riding School that say the pillars are very hard on the horses and that they are used today mostly for ceremonial purposes only. It’s rare to see them do anything in the pillars except piaffe or levade for that reason.

I love how canticle starts talking about purpose bred horses so eruditely, LOL. For years we have listened to her say there’s no such thing. Now all of a sudden there is. LOL.

As far as Thoroughbreds and Quarter horses being used to do school jumps, I think that’s about the worst idea I’ve ever heard, it would take a very non-typical animal of either breed to do this work.

There are two breeds that the usual conformation and balance are simply not appropriate, and that’s EXACTLY why the school jumps were so wisely left out of competition tests, because people will immediately assume, ‘Well MY horse can do it too!’

Thoroughbreds commonly have straighter hocks for racing and Quarter horses very often have a downhill build and sickle hocks - to say nothing of the tiny cannons, small joints (so smaller articulating surface) and miniscule hooves holding up a forehand heavy body, so desirable in Quarter Horses these days. One of the worst tendencies of these two breeds is the very fine bones and small joints and feet that so desirable - post a pic of a bigger boned Thb or QH, especially without the huge high hip, massive low forehand, tiny legs and feet and ‘baby doll head’, and you’ll be told he’s a ‘puke’.

Podhajsky even visited an Andalusian breeder in Spain (not recently, obviously) and declared it a very sad shame that the horses all had insufficient bone for the work - even way back then, and they’re certainly often lighter boned now. But he ALSO complained that every year, he had very few horses to select from the Lipizanner breeding farm that were appropriate. He was very selective, and other people should be too.

There are very few breeds that routinely produce high school horses, and very few individuals even in the breeds used, that can do this stuff.

School jumps would be a disaster for such horses, and there is just the level of collection and impulsion required that such conformations simply can’t handle - simply not every horse can do that level of collection, just as very few Thoroughbreds and Quarter horses can be found in the national ranking of Grand Prix dressage horses scoring the top scores, and just as sadly, we have people assuming their horse should do school jumps - no WONDER the original test writers left the school jumps out of the tests. The thought of how wrong that would immediately go must have been very prominently in mind.

School jumpers actually can be either taller horses like the ones used at Saumur, OR shorter ones like Lipizanners (though actually, the type at the SRS is more and more going to a leggier squarer type). The common denominator is balance in the conformation, and joint and bone that gives greater longevity and power - the ability to develop a lot of collection (and stay sound for many years of training!), and wanting to do it.

One of the other reasons for keeping the school jumps out of competition is that competition involves a lot of repetition, especially today, the schedule is really alot of miles and a lot of shows. That is another reason these belong in exhibitions only.

Keeping the tests as easy as possible is kinder to the horses. Any judge worth his or her salt can tell a heck of a lot about a horses training watching him do very basic things - and with the advanced work the Grand Prix test is not only hard enough, it’s sufficient in and of itself, without adding anything else.

Lipizanners that do school jumps do not do them jump after jump or day after day as drills, behind the exhibitions is one of the best conditioning programs in the world, with just enough repetition to keep the animals fit and healthy and no more, and in any case, the jumps come out of collection, so that dressage work, including piaffe and passage keep the animals fit for the school jumps and endless repetition is not required.

The school horses are also retired from the jump work at the right time, and drop down to easier work such as quadrille and teaching students. In an environment where things are centrally controlled and it’s not about competition success, youngsters are coming along and the advanced horses are much more reliably retired when they should be, and pensioned, not kept in work til lthey can barely move. You can’t count in that with advanced horses in their teens and twenties being kept in work by riders who don’t have another one coming along, or need to sell for a profit to get the next horse.

One of the other reasons for keeping the jumps out of competition is that they are extremely dangerous. A bystander could have his head taken off if he’s in the wrong position. These are definitely not something one wants to see going on at public training and boarding stables where people and horses are out of control all over the place. These things need to be done in a controlled environment.

and of course the other reason is that very few people will ever get how to do this work properly, out of collection and impulsion - even fewer people will learn how to do the work properly and WANT to do it correctly rather than just slap it together and impress people.

One can go to any number of dinner theatres and exhibitions and see these jumps done incorrectly. VERY incorrectly. They really look like a mess and are an embarrassment. The horse’s legs are all over the place and collection is nonexistent or at a very low level. Such work is worthless compared to the correct stuff.

The story goes that one day a young student was cleaning stalls at the Spanish Riding School.

He was cleaning some of the new stallion’s stalls and two of the senior riders were standing nearby chatting about the new horses.

Suddenly the kid goes sailing across the aisle, several feet off the ground, and slams into the wall, crumpling to the floor.

‘Which stallion was that’, says one of the riders, ‘he’s going to make a great caprioler!’

Thanks for all the input folks keep it comin! :slight_smile:

So it sounds like it might come down to the difference between classical dressage and competitive dressage. Are they really two totally different animals? Or do they really only shoot off in different directions when the airs are concerned?

Take a competing warmblood’s piaffe and a SRS Lip stud’s piaffe, and if the warmblood’s doing it truly and correctly, I don’t see a huge difference. Is it only the classical horses then, that are expected to move onto levade, after a true, correct piaffe can be performed? :confused:

Slc2 wrote:

Jumping around in the pasture has nothing to do with school jumps. It’s a very, very bad idea to assume since a horse bucks and runs around in the pasture that it can do this stuff.

Jumping around in pasture has everything to do with school jumps. It is the horse’s natural expression of exuberance in freedom that is the underlying inspiration behind the classical riding art.

While all horses can perform the classical airs, I agree that not all horses should be encouraged to perform them. Very few horses have conformation sufficient to practice highly collected movements regularly and stay sound.

sublimequine wrote:

Is it only the classical horses then, that are expected to move onto levade, after a true, correct piaffe can be performed?

A classically trained warmblood could perform a levade.

So it sounds like it might come down to the difference between classical dressage and competitive dressage. Are they really two totally different animals? Or do they really only shoot off in different directions when the airs are concerned?

Competition dressage and classical dressage are two very different pursuits.

Classical dressage is nature based training that is founded on the horse’s natural movement and expression. Its primary goal is to improve each horse’s understanding and balance to the best of its individual capabilities. Great care is taken to elicit the horse’s willing participation and promote its long-term well being. Horses that are strong enough can go on to the extremely collected movements and airs above the ground, such as the levade. While the levade looks impressive, it’s getting the basic work just right that is the challenge. Once the basic work is right, the levade is automatically there.

Competition dressage has a style of its own. The emphasis in competition dressage seems to be more on producing the “WOW! Factor”. The “WOW! Factor” is produced by and large with methods that work against the horse’s nature/balance and for this reason competition work does not generally demonstrate the refined calmness, balance, engagement or natural movement of classical work.

If you study the work of classical riders like Meixner, Lindenbauer, Handler, Watjen, Neindorff, Herbermann and then study the work of the Olympic competition riders, you will begin to see that there are considerable differences. These differences came about because the two schools work toward very different ends.

[QUOTE=MelantheLLC;3695872]
The Cadre Noir do several airs, croupade, capriole, terre a terre and courbette. Not sure if they do levade.

Their horses that do the airs are Selle Francais and Lusitanos according to wikipedia. They are certainly lighter, larger horses than the Lipps.

Plus they do that lovely thing where they jump over a table of officers drinking wine. :winkgrin:

http://jumpcut.com/view/?id=DD5EE702D26611DB9692000423CF4092[/QUOTE]

Paul Belasik’s book shows him doing Levade and Pesade with a couple of horses, one a TB and the other, I think, a WB of some kind.

The picture here is from Dressage for (in?) the 20th Century, and my recollection is that the horse pictured is a TB:

http://www.equibooks.com/belasik.html

Don’t confuse Levade with Pesade. Some horses, usually more baroque in type, will offer pesade. Levade has a much deeper angle of hind joints, and is lower to the ground = much more difficult.

Horses with a baroque build are more suited to the Airs generally. Of course, there are exceptions. But they are dense in the body, and their angles make Airs easier. “Modern” Wb’s get further and further away from this–of course what is being sought/rewarded in competition is quite different. Not better or worse, just different.

I am quite blessed that the GP movements are NOT the pinnacle of training where I ride. High School is. We have four (? might be three now) Airs horses. And yes, their talents vary. We do have currently a capriole horse. http://www.sonsofthewindfarm.com/img08/pfestival006.jpg http://www.sonsofthewindfarm.com/img08/pfestival028.jpg We have a couple who Levade. My own stallion, being quite far from Iberian–but quite baroque in type and movement-- has a talent for Levade, showing a very low, controlled Pesade several times during great emotion. This is NOT a rear… almost the opposite as it is soooo collected. We are obviously not training it yet, but it will most likely be in his repertoire before we are done.

THE absolute MOST impressive thing I ever saw though was one young stallion playing in a lesson. My teacher was on the ground, using a bamboo in-hand whip and there is no other word for it, playing with the horse. Coaxing him to come to the stick… The young horse, who had never before been asked for either Spanish Walk or Passage, was coaxed into several steps of passage through this play. It was completely joyful and spontaneous (on the horse’s part–obviously quite thought out on the teacher’s part, and well ridden on the rider’s part!) and made such a huge impression on me. The horse obviously has talent for the movement–there was some decent sit and elevation behind, it wasn’t just flailing the front legs about.

Piaffe is not (only) a goal, it is a tool. We use piaffe to strengthen the horse, to develop sit and throughness. “Ab” training. :wink: Sometimes, even, to warm up!

So one of my questions still remains. If a GP rider did an air above the ground, any of them, in a freestyle test, would that “count”? I’ve never seen any of the airs performed in a competitive dressage context, ever. Are they NEVER seen in competitive dressage, only classical? :confused:

Good question. You don’t see Spanish Walk in Freestyles, so I’m guessing you aren’t allowed anything “outside” or “above” the prescribed movements… Many horses are taught passage via SW, so it’s something more than a few GP horses would know… and it’s sure a crowd pleaser… but no one ‘throws it in there,’ even as a non-judged movement… (I’d personally love to exit after the final halt in SW, ya know?)

Come to think of it, you get eliminated for doing anything ‘above level’ i.e. you’re not allowed to do half-pass in a First Level Freestyle, not allowed to do sequences of changes that are ‘above’ the level you’re in, etc. So… an Air would sort of be ‘above’ GP, would it not? (pun fully acknowledged, not intended…)

You think that TBs and QHs are unsuitable, yet you conveniently ignore your mostly-TB WBs which are equally (if not more so) inappropriate. If you want to argue that horses are purpose-bred for certain disciplines, then you need to accept that your horses may not be perfect for the very highest levels.

The story goes that one day a young student was cleaning stalls at the Spanish Riding School.

He was cleaning some of the new stallion’s stalls and two of the senior riders were standing nearby chatting about the new horses.

Suddenly the kid goes sailing across the aisle, several feet off the ground, and slams into the wall, crumpling to the floor.

‘Which stallion was that’, says one of the riders, ‘he’s going to make a great caprioler!’

I’ve never heard that story. Did you just make it up? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=pintopiaffe;3697515]
Good question. You don’t see Spanish Walk in Freestyles, so I’m guessing you aren’t allowed anything “outside” or “above” the prescribed movements… Many horses are taught passage via SW, so it’s something more than a few GP horses would know… and it’s sure a crowd pleaser… but no one ‘throws it in there,’ even as a non-judged movement… (I’d personally love to exit after the final halt in SW, ya know?)

Come to think of it, you get eliminated for doing anything ‘above level’ i.e. you’re not allowed to do half-pass in a First Level Freestyle, not allowed to do sequences of changes that are ‘above’ the level you’re in, etc. So… an Air would sort of be ‘above’ GP, would it not? (pun fully acknowledged, not intended…)[/QUOTE]

Oh really, you get penalized for doing stuff above your level? That I didn’t know either! :eek:

So maybe you’re right, that a rider would actually get penalized for employing say a levade or something in a GP freestyle test. That seems kinda sad. :frowning:

slc2; This is off-topic, but you’re speaking of ONE SMALL facet of the QH world there, halter. Nobody wants a ranch QH, a gaming QH, a racing QH, a cutting QH, with tiny stick legs and 00 feet, and the ‘babydoll face’ is irrelevent in all these contexts. One of the reasons I’m no longer in Dressage is because I’m into stock horses now, so they’re kinda my specialty. :lol:

TheOrangeOne… I might be way off, but I think it is a horse being trained for Capriole. Capriole has three parts–the pesade, the jump up, then the kick out. Some horses automatically do the jump-and-kick (or at least ‘offer’ it) and these would NOT be the courbetteurs (sp? sorry…–the courbette-ers :stuck_out_tongue: )

That looks to my NOT trained eye to be a horse coming down from the kick-out phase of the Capriole. They do land fronts first, as if coming down from over a jump. I can’t remember if when it is fully trained they must land on all four evenly or not. One of the jumps that is the finishing touch, but I’m not sure which.

Pillars are still used. It’s hard to explain, but they are much more psychological than actual restraint. They are a pretty amazing tool. I have ridden a (trained!) horse up into the pillars–sans cavesson or side reins or ‘cross ties’ dropped reins, and piaffed. It’s way cool. :yes:

Even halter horses are moving away from the 00 feet aren’t they? At least now that HYPP is going out of style they won’t be dropping dead randomly :wink: