Levade, capriole, courbette, etc, in the Dressage ring?

[sublimequine]

Just saying right off the bat, I’m not a Dressage rider, but have an idea about the discipline as I used to ride it. So while I’m familiar with the terms and ideas, that’s about as far as it goes. :lol:

I was watching some videos of the SRS horses on youtube, and performing their levades, caprioles, etc. And I was wondering, why aren’t these employed in ‘modern day’ Dressage, like in the Olympic rings, at the top levels of the sport? Obviously I understand why they aren’t seen in the lower levels, but if you’re riding the very top of the discipline, and you are the pinnicle of Dressage talent, how come these maneuvers aren’t seen?

Also, another question. Are these maneuvers even “recognized” by the organization that creates the tests and such (don’t know the name… is it like USEF or something? :lol: )? Like if you were an Olympic rider, and decided in your freestyle to do a levade, would they “count” it, or would that be like doing a sliding stop in the Dressage ring? :o

One more question, only one, I promise! :lol: I’ve always heard the absolute high point of collection is the levade. ie, if you progress from trot, to collected trot, to piaffe, then finally to levade. So say you took an Olympic horse, at the very top levels, had a SRS rider get on, would the horse be able to perform a levade once it understood what was being asked? If the horse was truly trained well and taught to be light and collect, it should be able to levade perfectly, right? Even if never asked before, once it understands mentally, physically the animal should be able to do it with ease?

Oh, and feel free to answer whichever questions you prefer, that’s fine if you don’t answer them all, I know I asked a lot. I’m curious about this, and never really thought about it until now. I think it would be really cool if I could see these manuevers in freestyles and stuff!

[TouchstoneAcres]

This is too juicy to ignore. If the airs were required at GP, I think we’d see 99% Lipizzans and only 1% WBs in the ring instead of the other way around.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=TouchstoneAcres;3695727]
This is too juicy to ignore. If the airs were required at GP, I think we’d see 99% Lipizzans and only 1% WBs in the ring instead of the other way around.[/QUOTE]

Can Warmbloods not do these things or something? Lipizzans are pretty bulky and dense horses themselves…

That’s what they were called, “airs above the ground”, couldn’t remember the phrase, thank you. :lol:

[canticle]

Modern competitive dressage stops at Grand Prix. Is this really the pinnacle? I guess it depends on your definition of dressage.

For a correctly trained horse, levade is the natural next step up from piaffe. Since you should be schooling a level higher than you are showing, I believe that GP riders could use the levade as a test at home to see if their piaffe is correct. I think many of the problems we see in the GPs today are because riders are not schooling the next level up. They are effectively maxed out, and it shows.

[kdow]

I would be rather surprised if a SRS rider could hop on a horse which hadn’t been specifically conditioned for the airs and get anything good out of it- not necessarily due to the horse not understanding, but simply down to muscle development. It takes time for a horse to progress from a trot to a collected trot, and from there to piaffe, and part of that time is simply getting the horse physically fit.

Also, these days, you’d have to be pretty careful which Olympic level horse you picked- some of them really do not do the piaffe in the way which develops the muscles which would lead to being able to do the levade.

[Aven]

My understanding is that when training the lippizaners the trainers would see which air(s) about the ground the horse had talent for. None of the stallions did all the airs, only one or two.

So to try to make it a prerequisite would be very difficult. Unless it was say ‘X halt… air of you choice’. I am sure many warmbloods could do airs above the ground, but it would further reduce the number of horses it would take to go to the top even by asking for anything more than a levade. I don’t think there was a single horse who could do all the airs…someone will correct me if I am wrong

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=canticle;3695762]
Modern competitive dressage stops at Grand Prix. Is this really the pinnacle? I guess it depends on your definition of dressage.

For a correctly trained horse, levade is the natural next step up from piaffe. Since you should be schooling a level higher than you are showing, I believe that GP riders could use the levade as a test at home to see if their piaffe is correct. I think many of the problems we see in the GPs today are because riders are not schooling the next level up. They are effectively maxed out, and it shows.[/QUOTE]

My definition is coming from very limited knowledge, that’s why I’m asking folks who know the sport better than I do. :lol:

I think you are right though, I have never seen a Grand Prix (that’s what GP stands for, correct?) rider do any of these airs above the ground. Come to think of it I’ve never seen any horse but the SRS Lipizanners perform them. It’s obviously not a great resource, but go onto youtube and search these moves. It’s 99% the SRS, 1% some random teenage girl with a rearing horse calling it a levade. :lol:

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=kdow;3695764]
I would be rather surprised if a SRS rider could hop on a horse which hadn’t been specifically conditioned for the airs and get anything good out of it- not necessarily due to the horse not understanding, but simply down to muscle development. It takes time for a horse to progress from a trot to a collected trot, and from there to piaffe, and part of that time is simply getting the horse physically fit.

Also, these days, you’d have to be pretty careful which Olympic level horse you picked- some of them really do not do the piaffe in the way which develops the muscles which would lead to being able to do the levade.[/QUOTE]

Say you took a GP horse that was trained correctly, and did a ‘perfect’, correct, true piaffe wonderfully. In theory, the same muscles would be used to perform the levade that were used to piaffe, correct? So physically the horse would be able to perform it, if it could already perform a true, correct piaffe.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=Aven;3695766]
My understanding is that when training the lippizaners the trainers would see which air(s) about the ground the horse had talent for. None of the stallions did all the airs, only one or two.

So to try to make it a prerequisite would be very difficult. Unless it was say ‘X halt… air of you choice’. I am sure many warmbloods could do airs above the ground, but it would further reduce the number of horses it would take to go to the top even by asking for anything more than a levade. I don’t think there was a single horse who could do all the airs…someone will correct me if I am wrong :)[/QUOTE]

Now this I didn’t know. I always assumed the Lipizanners could all perform all the airs, not one or two select ones. Thanks for the info!

[His_Greyness]

No extra points.

I have seen all these movements during an FEI CCI**** test but they were performed impromptu by the horse impatient to be out on cross country. :lol:

[kdow]

[QUOTE=sublimequine;3695776]
Say you took a GP horse that was trained correctly, and did a ‘perfect’, correct, true piaffe wonderfully. In theory, the same muscles would be used to perform the levade that were used to piaffe, correct? So physically the horse would be able to perform it, if it could already perform a true, correct piaffe.[/QUOTE]

I am not an expert by any means, but I would still think it’d depend on how fit that particular horse was for the challenge- if he’d been doing piaffe as part of his regular training program at home (instead of as something to be tuned up and shown mainly at competition) then possibly- but remember that even SRS horses don’t start doing the airs with a rider.

What you could possibly see is that a horse properly trained for piaffe, for whom piaffe is a regular thing, would be able to produce a reasonable effort at a levade on long reins (i.e. no rider.) (And that’s how it’d be started anyway, based on what I’ve been old by classical-minded folks- airs are ALWAYS started from the ground, not under saddle, simply due to the amount of physical effort it requires from the horse to lift himself, never mind adding a weight up there which can shift around.)

[kdow]

[QUOTE=sublimequine;3695755]
Can Warmbloods not do these things or something? Lipizzans are pretty bulky and dense horses themselves…

That’s what they were called, “airs above the ground”, couldn’t remember the phrase, thank you. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Warmbloods, particularly these days, tend to be fairly large, relatively heavy critters. By comparison, Lipizzans are smaller, and as a result of that, lighter, but still well-muscled. Simple physics says that it takes more work (on the part of the horse) to lift a larger mass, so it should be harder for a typical warmblood to do any given movement than an equally trained Lipizzan.

[Cindyg]

This is an excellent topic for discussion.

Don’t forget that the Andalusians can do the airs above the ground too.

[kdow]

[QUOTE=Nin;3695821]
This is an excellent topic for discussion.

Don’t forget that the Andalusians can do the airs above the ground too. :)[/QUOTE]

For the purposes of warmblood vs ?, I class Andalusians in with the Lippizans. They have the same general build and body type in terms of average height and musculature.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=kdow;3695820]
Warmbloods, particularly these days, tend to be fairly large, relatively heavy critters. By comparison, Lipizzans are smaller, and as a result of that, lighter, but still well-muscled. Simple physics says that it takes more work (on the part of the horse) to lift a larger mass, so it should be harder for a typical warmblood to do any given movement than an equally trained Lipizzan.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t realize Lipizzans were that much smaller than warmbloods, as they do seem like very compact, dense horses (with those big thick necks! :lol: ). But you’re right, the few big ol’ 18 hander warmbloods I’ve been around, I could see them struggling to do airs above the ground.

Nin; That’s another question, can any breed perform ANY of the airs above the ground? Perhaps not all of them, but one of them? Or do you specifically need a Dressage-y (for lack of a better term) horse? They always say Dressage is all about training, and that any breed can do it. But at that level, can you take say an Arab or a TB and bust out a courbette, if trained and conditioned properly? :lol:

[MyCatRules]

I think many of the Baroque breeds have an easier time with the airs - Lippizans, Andalusians, Freisians, and Knabstruppers are all able to do the high school movements. Some Warmbloods can also do them with training - but it seems to come easier to the Baroque horses. Just as extensions seem to come easier to the Warmbloods.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=MyCatRules;3695850]
I think many of the Baroque breeds have an easier time with the airs - Lippizans, Andalusians, Freisians, and Knabstruppers are all able to do the high school movements. Some Warmbloods can also do them with training - but it seems to come easier to the Baroque horses. Just as extensions seem to come easier to the Warmbloods.[/QUOTE]

Now why is it that a Friesian would have an easier time with the airs than a Warmblood? They’re usually around the same weight, I believe.

[MelantheLLC]

The Cadre Noir do several airs, croupade, capriole, terre a terre and courbette. Not sure if they do levade.

Their horses that do the airs are Selle Francais and Lusitanos according to wikipedia. They are certainly lighter, larger horses than the Lipps.

Plus they do that lovely thing where they jump over a table of officers drinking wine. :winkgrin:

http://jumpcut.com/view/?id=DD5EE702D26611DB9692000423CF4092

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=MelantheLLC;3695872]
The Cadre Noir do several airs, croupade, capriole, terre a terre and courbette. Not sure if they do levade.

Their horses that do the airs are Selle Francais and Lusitanos according to wikipedia. They are certainly lighter, larger horses than the Lipps.

Plus they do that lovely thing where they jump over a table of officers drinking wine. :winkgrin:

http://jumpcut.com/view/?id=DD5EE702D26611DB9692000423CF4092[/QUOTE]

I’ve seen those horses before, good point! I totally forgot about them.

[MelantheLLC]

The officers are drinking wine. Not the horses.

Thought perhaps I should clarify.