Levade, capriole, courbette, etc, in the Dressage ring?

[slc2]

You’ll get a lot of argument on that from historians of the cavalry and war, as well as historians of the equestrian arts. For references, I’m not referring to some popular schlock book in which the same untruths are copied over and over from earlier sources making the same assumptions. here is such a thing as ‘traditionally incorrect history’.

Actually, I think modern dressage is a blend of traditional more extended movements together with many traditional highly collected movements. I think all of it developed in the riding school, borrowing and amalgamating elements from here and there, the capers and jumps performed in galas and carousels of hundreds of years ago, the courtly riding of an elite that regarded studying the equestrian arts as good for the education of the elite, right along with fencing and studying Machiavelli, etc.

For example, I don’t for one moment believe that the extended trot a top dressage horse does - is or ever was - an efficient way to cover long distances, nor that it has any resemblance in technical points to a road trot, strong trot, hunter trot, fence line trot, etc. It is different - because it’s a longer stride doesn’t mean it is the same, or developed in a direct line from something else.

Riding a highly collected horse in the battle field, having him wheel and kick at the enemy, having him leap in the air to clear a path - lovely, romantic thoughts. The study of the history of horsemanship and war and cavalry would clear that right up.

[Ajierene]

[QUOTE=slc2;3707264]
Riding a highly collected horse in the battle field, having him wheel and kick at the enemy, having him leap in the air to clear a path - lovely, romantic thoughts. The study of the history of horsemanship and war and cavalry would clear that right up.[/QUOTE]

So what books and other references are there that I can peruse to further my knowledge on the subject? I have thus far only been able to find evidence to the contrary.

[slc2]

Try reading what Karl Mikolka has written on the subject, and what any student of the SRS would tell you - they study original works and historical facts, not romantic fiction.

Try The Role of the Horse in Man’s Culture by Barclay, or anything factual about the cavalry and what their purpose and activities were like.

Consider the cavalry that slipped the horse’s bits from their mouths so the riders could not turn them to run away, LOL. And so the enemy knew they were not ever going to turn and that it was a mad full out charge.

[ThreeFigs]

Anyone here attend the convention last week? Anyone stop at the Mane Imports booth and watch videos? Anyone notice the German Coldbloods performing airs? Pretty cool!

Proves it’s possible for just about ANY horse to do the high school leaps!

[sm1]

"Competitive and classical dressage are two entirely different disciplines. Classical dressage is best suited for Iberian horses with their more compact body types that are better able to reach underneath their centers of gravity for the haute ecole movements/airs above the ground. These Iberian horses, because of their conformations, cannot manage the same extension and expression to their gaits that the warmblood can, however.

“The basic gist is that some horses, basically those with more compact conformation, like the Iberian, are more suited for Classical Dressage, while the warmblood is more conformationally suited for Competitive Dressage. Either horse can be trained to do either discipline, and the rider must choose which discipline he wants to pursue. It is the rare horse that is able to excel at both.”
http://www.germandressage.com/conventionnotes2003/competitivevsclassical.html

[Icecapade]

[QUOTE=slc2;3707264]

For example, I don’t for one moment believe that the extended trot a top dressage horse does - is or ever was - an efficient way to cover long distances, nor that it has any resemblance in technical points to a road trot, strong trot, hunter trot, fence line trot, etc. It is different - because it’s a longer stride doesn’t mean it is the same, or developed in a direct line from something else.

QUOTE]

endurance… big swingy trots… not really nice extendeds. 110% correct here. its nice… its useful… but not for long distances.

I can’t agrue the use of airs for calvary uses or not… as infantry developed and the dawning realization of the use of thehorse, the cav was used mostly against footed soldiers rather than other calvary… and soon found that against a phalanx or box it was impenitrable by calvary advances. There truly is not a lot of time to get a horse to do that… have a horse that WOULD react… priceless… can’t tell you how many times I went to reenactments wishing I could get a horse to stop faster, turn faster and do exactly what I wanted when I wanted. some of it is feasible… the rest… not so much.

shrug… interesting topics… as there are many here…

[slc2]

There is NO WAY cavalry could charge infantry in rank, that kind of thing never worked and never could, caprioles or not, such a thing is suicide, horses were not used to charge on massed infantry.

[Icecapade]

properly organized massed infantry, you are correct… as I orginally said…

but general infantry before it was determined that a box or phalanx was the most useful tool against Cav? yes. they did.

[flasher]

Scl, you may be an excellent rider, a great trainer and a wonderful resource here at COTH but you are not a very good historian. You’re making too broad of a generalization.

It wasn’t until modern firearms and metalworking became standard infantry supplies that cavalry didn’t overpower infantry on most fields. That’s why heavy horse was such an important tool despite the cost associated with it.

Since classical dressage has its roots clear back to Xenophon, why restrict the roots of the various movements to the Napoleonic Wars forward? I think we can all agree that the side pass existed before the musket.

[STF]

Well two days ago the levade, capriole, courbette and other non existant above air movements we part of a VERY NON wanted training plan here at the farm when the cold front blew in.
Not saying I care to carry those into the ring! LOL

[slc2]

We are working on croupades.

The neighbor’s terrier is the training cue.

He can fly.

[STF]

Naaa, this was like a levadepiroette… its a new movement that they made up. Pretty impressive as long as I stay on! :lol:

[thatmoody]

My cue is an aggressive squirrel. Truly impressive hangtime from a TB.

[STF]

LMAO
Been there.
Crazy cat jumped down off the barn one day.
I did moves I did not know I could do and VERY high off the ground.
:lol:

[thatmoody]

I have to confess that as a kid I grew up near Myakka, and hung out at the Lipizzaner’s ranch there, and it was truly an awesome experience. The babies were the best - their level of play is different from other babies.

We now have an Andy stallion that we bought from them, and he’s a lot of fun to ride, although he doesn’t do airs (and we are not planning on working on them, either, even though we’re working with the Lipizzan trainers to polish him). He is now being retrained as a dressage mount, but he has some interesting “tricks” that they don’t teach at the SRS - he will waltz, and we’re beginning to teach him to bow. Not practical stuff, but fun, and he’s a ham (there are pictures of him in my Chronicle page).

When my TB saw the squirrel, he reared, then leaped forward, which was actually fun! But he doesn’t really have the hock/stifle configuration to get really low so it wasn’t like move on a high school horse, of course :P.

[marshmallow1]

Ha! I didn’t know about the wine table jumping!

Look up Alois Podhajsky’s book My Horses, My Teachers. There are a few pictures of different breeds doing airs work, including a Saddlebred if I remember correctly.

Friesians are big and bulky, sure, but the horses of that breed that I have worked with are very prone to experiment with the airs, particularly the Levade and Capriole. They are very powerful horses that tend to have more upward thrust than forward. I’ve never attempted to develop these movements but have been offered the untrained versions of them on several occasions, much like the Lipizzans.

It’s my understanding that the taller horses are not asked to perform the airs above the ground regularly because it would be harder on their joints.