LF: Refining Stallions to produce smaller amateur eventer

I have a breeding approved CSH mare. She is 1/2, TB 1/2 Clyde. I am looking for a stallion to bred her to in 2017. My goals are to keep her amazing temperament. And ideally have a foal for an amateur eventer (the mare is an amazing amateur event horse).

Would like to improve the following:

  • long back
  • low heels
  • lots of substance

Would like to keep:

  • great temperament
  • less height 16.0 hands is tall enough for me

Here are the stallions I have been considering:
Dauphin http://www.aileronstables.com/dauphin.php
Lestat http://www.dreamscapefarm.com/HorseDetail.aspx?ID=598
Redwine http://www.ashlandfarm.ca/#!redwine/cjg9
Tango http://warkwynequine.com/stallion
Rather Well

Any other suggestions? Which stallions have been producing smaller well tempered offspring?

Would prefer fresh semen in Canada.

Thank you for your suggestions :slight_smile:

If I were you, I’d go with a stallion that is proven to consistently stamp a specific phenotype, regardless of the mare he covers: meaning he makes carbon copies.

Because your mare is a first generation cross (F1), you don’t know what she might produce in terms of the foal – will she predominately pass on the draft? Sickle hock and dropped croup? Or will she pass on the TB, maybe downhill or with a poor neck? While she might look a specific way (phenotype), I’ve found that the phenotype is rarely a good measure in predicting the genotype that an F1 will produce.

I’d look for something that has a high percentage of TB or full TB, personally. TBxClydes are wonderful, but they’re F1 and it can be very unreliable breeding an F1 horse. Not because they aren’t good horses but because they tend not to pass on the same consistent traits - sometimes you get an F2 that looks just like the mother, other times it seems like random horses were pulled into the mix. The point of breeding is to consolidate specific trait[s] – when you have a first generation ‘hybrid’ of breeds, it can be very unpredictable on whether or not that F1 is going to produce or replicate what you see on a phenotype/genotype level.

There is a reason that many clyde/tb or shire/tb or even belgian/tb breeders (for foxhunting, etc) rarely take their F1 and cross it back to another f1 – typically they will cross it back with a TB or an arabian as both of those breeds are very consistent in what they pass along and there will be no surprises in terms of sudden phenotypes that may pop up that weren’t visible in the parents.

The best example I’ve heard or seen for F1/F2 argument: when you breed a pug to a beagle, the resulting puppies are F1 ‘puggles’ and are very consistently the same regardless of sire and dam: tawny agouti fur like pugs, moderate brachycephalism, long floppy soft ears, darker mask around the eyes, proportionate limbs. When you take an F1 puggle and breed it with another F1, the results are all across the board and very unreliable: sometimes you get spots, sometimes you get stunted limbs, you get extreme brachycephalism, etc. You almost never get a second generation ‘puggle’. Instead you get a mixed breed looking dog that varies from tawny to white/black spotted, some with good proportions and others looking like franken-dogs. The practice of breeding F1 to F1 rarely seems to produce the same phenotype as the F1s even though the parents may look the same, the genetics are still a very mixed bag.

Which brings me to the horses you’ve mentioned; I will let more experienced breeders chime in, but personally I would not be using a warmblood unless I had seen other offspring by draft/tb mares by that warmblood that were exceptional.

I might consider Gatsby, if only because he does tend to lighten heavier horses, and I have seen him cross well with draft/tb crosses. He will probably not improve movement, but he will contribute brains and good aptitude for LL eventing.

Other than Gatsby, I’d really strongly consider a TB. Most draftxtbs have a decent gallop, but when you cross them with a warmblood the gallop can be lost if it is not a warmblood specifically for eventing.

Of the TBs I’d consider:
Sea Accounts
Coconut Grove
Sea Lion
Salute The Truth
Chiron
Lucarelli

My personal favorite is A Fine Romance; unfortunately he passed away last month, but if he has any frozen he would be my top pick. Salute The Truth would be a close second BUT his progeny are varied in their personality - some are quirky and some are very tractable.

For warmbloods, I might consider Lotus T.

I know you’d prefer fresh but if you’d consider frozen I have to suggest Future Gravitas. He’s short, very correct, a very good character, solid rump & loin.

Special Memories would be another.

I agree you should stick to TB & possibly some TK. This will help ensure the put together like spare parts that occurs when breeding the next generation of this cross is held at bay. TB w/a bit of Irish could also work, however, the only one that comes to mind is Formula 1 and he is not prepotent for type, at all. Produces too base narrow & they can be huge.

Lotus T is very nice (have seen him in person a couple times) but as a refining sire… I’m not sure. He is a BIG boy (17.1).

If WB is a must I would go for high % of TB in the line. Maybe even Trak?

I know the dude I am going to mention is still very new but Mitril is smaller and he also finished the 70 day stallion testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW1HLjmyf5U

His foals seem to look good too. You would get a single dilute foal. There are many stallions that could work for you but for some reason this dude came to mind.

That being said even the full TB Goldmaker may be interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVphhU0d2Cc

I agree 100% with Beowulf. You do need a stamping stallion that can prove what he puts on the ground

You are completely right – I forgot that height was one of the specs. I think if I was breeding a cross, I might consider him – it depends on what OP means by refining. Is she saying refining because her mare is coarse or noble, or does she mean the mare is as hefty as a brickhouse? He is big. He is definitely on my watch list, I’ve really liked what I’ve seen so far.

I’m nosy, I’d love to see pictures.

Of the horses that she mentioned, Rather Well is a full TB who has done UL eventing. His last completed competition, per the FEI database, was a CIC3* in 2007.

The 3/4 TB x 1/4 draft is how Covert Rights is bred. And they are, or used to be, a foxhunting staple.

I’m nosy, I’d love to see pictures.

they should be a requirement for all of these type of posts (and in photobucket because work blocks FB…LOL)

Take a serious look at the Trakehner stallion Asher. Registered and approved F1 Canadian Sport Horse stallion. Fresh semen and standing in Tottenham, Ontario just north of Toronto. Outstanding pedigree for eventing! Abdullah in his pedigree and you sure can’t get better then that.

Here is an article about his bloodlines. http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/Asher.html

His owner Nancy is fabulous to deal with. I have bred to Asher a number of times and have been very pleased with the foals. All have become CSHA line champions and very successful in their riding careers as well. Can’t recommend him enough.

Thank you for all the suggestions.

And I created a photobucket account. I hope it is accessible.
http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/fieldstonehollow/library/?sort=3&page=1
She was measured at 15.3h

Thank you :slight_smile:

OP, you have gotten some great suggestions. I will also add, that of the ones on your original list, I would not expect Redwine to refine a 1/2 draft mare. I am also not sure I would expect him to pass on a great deal of athleticism to produce an eventer.

What about a pony stallion? There are some super GRP stallions in North America that are producing down-sized mounts for riders in all disciplines - including Bodyguard, Burberry, Manchester City, and Belafonte d’Avalon. Caveat is that some of them may not refine as much as others - esp. on a 1/2 draft mare - so you would need to think about that aspect.

But I do agree with Beowulf - for an TB/Clyde mare, your safest bet for refining would be to go with a TB, or a nice Anglo-Arab.

[QUOTE=FieldstoneHollow;8758208]
Thank you for all the suggestions.

And I created a photobucket account. I hope it is accessible.
http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/fieldstonehollow/library/?sort=3&page=1
She was measured at 15.3h

Thank you :-)[/QUOTE]

YAY! thank you for doing Photobucket!

I agree after looking at her that a nice TB would be good.

Mitril has produced a really nice draft cross that I saw. He isn’t heavy but a TB might be best for this girl.

After seeing the photos, I agree, you definitely want a TB. I’d look for a TB with a very correct hind end; I wouldn’t immediately go for short-coupled, but I’d want a TB that is known to pass along a very strong slope of femur and powerful HQ. I’d want to shorten her barrel a touch.

One TB stallion that has been on my radar for a while is Baatesh. He might go well with your mare, but what I like about him is how consistent his family is in terms of the phenotype they produce - if you go back his entire page, pretty much every stallion and mare on his page has very, very similar conformation. And if you look at Pulpit and what he’s produced, or Nijinsky, or even Java Gold and Graustark, you see that the horses they put on the ground are very similar across the board.

I agree that a TB would be a good choice. If you’re set on a warmblood stallion, you might consider a nice Trakehner, like Ehrentanz KD (Hirtentanz/Buddenbrock). He has a stellar temperament, a super jump, and has been producing some nice foals. He’s listed at 16.3, but he’s not a large/heavy type at all.

She’s really cute :slight_smile:

Definitely a TB, or a nearly full TB. Or TK.

She needs a shorter loin more than an overall shorter back. You still need ample room to put a saddle.

Even if her loin was shortened I’d want to see longer legs. She definitely doesn’t need refining in her leg bone, and if legs were longer, with that bone, she wouldn’t need refining in her body.

Her neck needs a bit better tie-in - not so low on her chest.

Do you want to keep her height down? Or are you ok with going a bit over 16h? That will really influence the stallion choice.

I would personally not breed to Tango (Tango Event).

The stallion is unproven in the hunter/jumper/event world, other then getting it’s CSHA designation the owner doesn’t seem to be doing much to market it as a stallion in terms of creating a career for it.

I have seen a few of his babies and was not overly impressed, they are small and crooked through the knees.

Not worth the stud fee IMO.

I am standing a new stallion in 2017 and am located in Ontario, Canada … :slight_smile:

Grande Sovereign is a 16.1hh Oldenburg stallion that is 57% TB through his bloodlines and he adds a lot of refinement and elegance to his foals

He and his foals can be seen at www.truecoloursfarm.com

Good luck in your decision! :slight_smile:

I second the Baatesh suggestion. I believe all stallions from Avalon Equine in the US are available in Canada via Mountain Creek Sporthorses.