Liberty - horse aggressive at trot?

Hi! I’ve been doing some basic roundpen stuff with my two year old, and I’m trying to push into more liberty work. She’ll go around the pen fine with me centered, then come in and follow me, turn with me, pivot nicely away from me, back up without me touching her. Doing great with the basics!

But if I try to get her to trot alongside me, she suddenly thinks its time to play crazy-tag or something. She starts tossing her head, gets right behind me instead of alongside me, and starts bouncing around trying to nip or nose-smack me. I’ve managed to hold a dressage whip in one hand and use it to stop her from lining up behind me and guide her back to my side, but she still trots along with her head sideways, eyeing me like she’s waiting for that opening to play mouthy games some more. When I walk or halt, she will walk or halt with me and go back to behaving perfectly.

Is this normal behavior? Is she getting overexcited by me jogging and thinking its play time? Is guiding with the short whip the correct response or is there something else I need to do before we continue with trotting this way? If I’m in the center sending her around at a trot she is fine.

I don’t know but Mr Xan’s old horse was MASSIVELY OFFENDED by the can-can. Yes, if you pretended to dance like an olde Frenchie exotic danseuse, he would try to bite you. Which Mr Xan did on the regular to annoy him.

I suspect it was over stimulation of some play mechanism. And it was pretty funny. Until it wasn’t! Mr Xan had to nip that can-can inspired business in the butt before it was HIS butt getting bit!

When I’m doing liberty work or ground work or tricks, if anything we are doing starts to elicit behavior I think could be dangerous or horse is getting too excited, I eliminate that from our repertoire for a while. If the horse is getting out of line at a higher speed, then my guess is that you don’t have your signals and routine as well worked out at the slower speeds as you think.

I realize lots of people like to play “chase” games with their horses, but they make me nervous.

For your specific routine here, I’d go back to leading her with a halter so you can re-inforce that the correct place is beside you, at your shoulder, not behind you.

Horses don’t generally do much running around side by side, except when one is vying with the other for leadership. I think, by asking her to come alongside you, you will be stimulating her ‘I’m the boss’ instincts. Keep her behind you until you are well established with your work, and the begin to bring up beside you and send her back repeatedly, so she knows that you are in charge.

OP, you missed the most important “basic” there is. The horse has to respect your personal space and stay out of it unless you specifically bring it in. If she is trying to nip or nose bump you she didn’t understand this basic lesson, and she does not respect you. Are you planning on riding her?

What is your goal with this horse? If something you are trying to teach is obviously eliciting a bad response, and what you are trying to teach is just a sidebar to an intended career as a riding or performance horse, just stop. Your filly is treating you like a friend to be toyed with instead of respecting you as a leader. When you “trot off” she interprets that as an invitation to play. My advice, step back and reinforce the basics and avoid this particular exercise for a while. In general, if your young horse is starting to treat you like another horse you need to nip that in the bud with some firmness, and you also need to consider whether your young horse simply needs more time in the pasture with other horses to simply grow up a little bit. Sometimes a strict pasture mate can add a little humility back in to a young horse’s attitude.

I’m obviously not a NH person, and here’s why: in all my years of bringing along young horses, I’ve really never seen excessive groundwork (beyond the basics of a proper upbringing) translate to any kind of an advantage under saddle. If you bring a horse up properly–teach it to comfortably accept human touch/grooming, pick up it’s feet, stand tied, lead respectfully, etc. and it has a basic trust and confidence in human beings, that is a GREAT place to start under saddle training. If the horse knows a few voice commands like “whoa” or a cluck, that’s a bonus. “Over handled” young horses often gravitate towards being rude or pushy because very few people applying the handling have the experience and natural authority to keep the young horse from starting to think of and treat humans like other horses.

One last comment, I can’t understand why anyone would ever train a young horse to pivot away from them as some kind of a “skill.” This is completely at odds with teaching a young horse to stand still while being mounted, stand still while being clipped, etc. Standing still and tolerating a distraction or annoyance is a very important skill. Pivoting away from people who are trying to approach/do something = not useful.

While I agree with some of the suggestions above, and am not a NH person, there are some aspects of “NH”, if that is what you call it, that have uses.

I was raised before that era and it was an eye opener for me when I first saw a Western fellow using it. The equestrian organizations did not recognize any other system than their own, but now there’s been a slow turnaround and a lot of us mainstream people have adopted the aspects that help us communicate better with our horses. Body language, small movements that speak volumes, and the round pen is a good concept - Mine is square, actually, her paddock.

But there are tons of colt-starters out there trying to make money on the style,
putting a brand name on their system, and relatively few real horsemen.

Liberty is a whole 'nuther thing, an extension.

I guess I can’t really figure out what you’re trying to do. Why are you trotting alongside her? In a round pen?

I can trot along side my horses if I have them on a halter - e.g. to jog them for the vet/farrier, etc. but I wouldn’t do this without a halter or bridle. Not sure what the point would be?

I think many horses would respond as if it’s a game or challenge if they are not being led. Not something I would want to do intentionally.

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8850077]
What is your goal with this horse? If something you are trying to teach is obviously eliciting a bad response, and what you are trying to teach is just a sidebar to an intended career as a riding or performance horse, just stop. Your filly is treating you like a friend to be toyed with instead of respecting you as a leader. When you “trot off” she interprets that as an invitation to play. My advice, step back and reinforce the basics and avoid this particular exercise for a while. In general, if your young horse is starting to treat you like another horse you need to nip that in the bud with some firmness, and you also need to consider whether your young horse simply needs more time in the pasture with other horses to simply grow up a little bit. Sometimes a strict pasture mate can add a little humility back in to a young horse’s attitude.

I’m obviously not a NH person, and here’s why: in all my years of bringing along young horses, I’ve really never seen excessive groundwork (beyond the basics of a proper upbringing) translate to any kind of an advantage under saddle.

One last comment, I can’t understand why anyone would ever train a young horse to pivot away from them as some kind of a “skill.”[/QUOTE]

Your first paragraph - totally agree, well put.

Your second paragraph - totally disagree. I find that correct groundwork gets you in the saddle much much faster and much much safer. I don’t know which programs you’ve been exposed to, but I basically teach go, whoa, give to the bit, move the shoulders, move the haunches, and sidepass. I also do a lot of desensitizing with bags, noisy stuff, etc. So you are safely on top of the horse in a couple days, and the horse goes, stops, and steers. Once you are on the horse you teach the one rein stop/disengage the hindquarters. Now you are good to go and it’s a matter of conditioning and refining your horses responses and broadening his experiences in a logical and consistent manner.

I’m not exactly sure what OP meant by “pivot away” but I read it as move the shoulders away. That’s a really hard one to teach from the saddle, I always teach it from the ground first. It comes in handy when you do lateral work and need the horse to move the shoulders. But maybe OP meant something else.

There are a bunch of different things you can do on the ground.

There is in-hand work, with either a bit or a halter. This is structured work where you are teaching flexions, lateral work, turning on haunches and forehands, half pass, backing up, etc. in a disciplined way that will lead to doing the movements in the same way under saddle. I can’t imagine how you would teach any of this from the saddle, without doing it quite extensively on the ground. It is also a time to get the horse used to the bit. I associate this method with dressage, though western trainers also do it. Here, you are asking for precision and correctness of movement, and the horse is not given a great deal of freedom during these exercises. It is like schooling the movements on the ground.

Then there is “ground work,” in the sense of obstacles, bomb-proofing, ground-tying, and good leading skills. This is more connected to western training, though all horses benefit from it. You’d do this in a rope halter, most likely. Here the horse is given more freedom how to perform the movements, and is expected to behave. By freedom, I mean that if you are teaching a horse to walk quietly over a tarp, you have them on a loose lead rope, and you are obviously not simultaneously trying to micromanage the quality of their walk.

Then there is liberty work. When trainers who specialize in what I’m calling “ground work” go to horse expos and put on a performance, they often show off liberty work, despite the fact that this is not what they actually teach in their clinics. This is also what the Cavallia troupe do: horses running large, running patterns, coming and going to the trainer, while stirring music plays in the PA system. It looks amazing, and people always say “I wish I could do that with my horse.” But real liberty work is also highly trained work, even though it is done on the ground. It is qualitatively different from “in-hand” or “ground work.” I would say that if you are reaching a problem spot with liberty work, that you reach out to a local trainer who specializes in this for some lessons. I am guessing there are holes in your earlier training that are appearing now as you reach some speed.

What are your goals? Are you just doing liberty work to have something fun to do with a young horse? In that case, back off the parts that are becoming dangerous and return to ground work, which is more directed.

Or do you have a time line to have a finished liberty horse, for performance or to do things like agility classes? In that case, get some professional help.

As far as whether work on the ground helps work in the saddle, I would say absolutely that dressage in-hand and western ground work both help enormously. I don’t however think there is much direct benefit from liberty work.

For my current program, the dressage in-hand work is the one that ladders into my riding, and that I’m responsible to my coach/trainer to do correctly and systematically.

I’ve done the ground work obstacles and bomb-proofing, maresy is good at it, but she’s a confident horse, so we don’t need to school this forever. I did a good ground work clinic early on, learned a lot, and incorporate the common-sense instructions into all my interactions with horses.

I also do clicker trick training, which is very effective on the ground with this horse, but rapidly gets counter productive in the saddle.

I’ve done bits of liberty work just for fun in turnout, watched others play with it too, and my guess is that not all horses are going to have the talent for it. You need a horse with a lot of energy so it is willing to run off on cue, but also with a “draw” to people, so you can call it in. And you need a horse that is not going to get aggressive up close. Cavallia picks its liberty horses as carefully as any performance rider picks their prospects, for sure.

I’ve got a big, heavy, dominant-personality stock horse mare, and I’m not comfortable up close while she is getting out the wiggles in turnout. I certainly don’t want her running full blast at me and then doing a sliding stop. In fact, I want her to always approach me at a walk in turnout. I stand back and let her do the full buck n run n squeal n fart thing for ten minutes or so, let her calm down on her own, before I get up close and ask for moves or tricks at liberty. That works well, but it means that I’m never trying to direct her full energy at liberty, which means I’m never in a position to try the real send and draw aspects of liberty work, only slower, quieter, things. So I don’t think I’ll ever be doing the Cavallia style high-energy work, which is fine.

On the other hand, my friend who has a lighter, handier, Arabian gelding can get him cantering around her on a 15 metre circle, following her at a collected canter while she jogs a circle, etc. He just has the energy, the physical ability, and the personality to do this almost naturally.

Actually, a horse should be able to almost everything asked of him, even if there is no real reason to do it …just because … it builds trust and partnership, if that is what a person wants to do.

Some people free jump with a horse with the handler running alongside, etc.

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8850442]
Actually, a horse should be able to almost everything asked of him, even if there is no real reason to do it …just because … it builds trust and partnership, if that is what a person wants to do.

Some people free jump with a horse with the handler running alongside, etc.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. But as with any activity, if things start to get out of control or get dangerous, then you need to backtrack, go back to basics, etc.

Thank you everyone for your input! For context and to answer some of your questions:

I’m not so much an NH person - I’m actually a dressage rider =P We are using the roundpen as a safe, contained setting to begin doing groundwork (or “in-hand” work as you apparently understand the term, we just call what you described there groundwork) with her. She has been working on the longlines with success, and we just recently started her with a simple snaffle.

The “liberty” is just stuff I’ve been doing as one more way to build up obedience and bonding while having a little fun. I do have a professional trainer working with me on the rest, but liberty work and trick training are little side projects of mine I play with (I have one boarders horse bowing down on one knee, he loves the trick training!).

By “pivot away” I did mean move her shoulders over/away. She can do it from both sides, as well as side pass (we often do this over a pole to make sure she’s doing it straight). It’s a distinct cue, not just her wandering off when I walk towards her. I have, in fact, been working on teaching her to lead up beside mounting blocks and other obstacles and stand straight and still alongside them, both leading from the front and with me standing on the obstacle as she sides up to it.

Based on the responses here it does sound she’s just getting over-excited by thinking that my jogging means “playtime”, and maybe we need more of an obedience foundation before I give her a cue that might be interpreted this way. As I said, at the walk she is well behaved and respects my space, but this bouncier motion may be cuing something different to her. I’ll take a step back from this, and maybe try having her trot with me on the halter before trying it loose again.

Trot - she misbehaves - stop, back up, halt, wait, continue. Use a cowboy halter.

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8850890]
Trot - she misbehaves - stop, back up, halt, wait, continue. Use a cowboy halter.[/QUOTE]

By cowboy halter do you mean a rope halter? I use a lariat-nose hybrid halter with her right now since she used to be big into pulling and bolting; it gives me control in much the same way a rope halter would.

[QUOTE=FoxyFilly;8850860]
Based on the responses here it does sound she’s just getting over-excited by thinking that my jogging means “playtime”, and maybe we need more of an obedience foundation before I give her a cue that might be interpreted this way. As I said, at the walk she is well behaved and respects my space, but this bouncier motion may be cuing something different to her. I’ll take a step back from this, and maybe try having her trot with me on the halter before trying it loose again.[/QUOTE]

Ok, so what would be the purpose of jogging alongside your horse at all? I get the concept of groundwork to teach your horse to move/pivot and how this could be useful for lots of things under saddle, or in-hand, like showmanship. But can’t really think of any good reason to run alongside a horse at liberty, or how it would translate into horse ownership or future riding skills. I’m honestly curious, not being snarky. I mean - you can teach horses all kinds of things; but not sure I would spend the time working on many of them.

You need a jog for horsemanship. :wink: OP, just don’t try to do it with spurs on.

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8851227]
You need a jog for horsemanship. :wink: OP, just don’t try to do it with spurs on.[/QUOTE]

Without a halter or lead rope?

[QUOTE=S1969;8851148]
Ok, so what would be the purpose of jogging alongside your horse at all? I get the concept of groundwork to teach your horse to move/pivot and how this could be useful for lots of things under saddle, or in-hand, like showmanship. But can’t really think of any good reason to run alongside a horse at liberty, or how it would translate into horse ownership or future riding skills. I’m honestly curious, not being snarky. I mean - you can teach horses all kinds of things; but not sure I would spend the time working on many of them.[/QUOTE]

It demonstrates that the horse A) is paying good enough attention that they notice the speed change, and B) is willing to trot along with you because as far as they are concerned, YOU are still leading THEM, regardless of the absence of a halter.

That’s the big idea. The horse realizes you are a safe place to be, and so they give you complete control of their feet. They recognize they could leave, but they CHOOSE not to. Moving in between gaits and varying speeds of movement is a test of the strength of that choice, as are changes of direction.

That’s a very useful idea that absolutely translates to under saddle work.:yes:

[QUOTE=S1969;8851148]
Ok, so what would be the purpose of jogging alongside your horse at all? I get the concept of groundwork to teach your horse to move/pivot and how this could be useful for lots of things under saddle, or in-hand, like showmanship. But can’t really think of any good reason to run alongside a horse at liberty, or how it would translate into horse ownership or future riding skills. I’m honestly curious, not being snarky. I mean - you can teach horses all kinds of things; but not sure I would spend the time working on many of them.[/QUOTE]

So you don’t end up like this poor girl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLcCTfnexe8