Licking and chewing... just learned something new!

[sportyspicepony]

I saw someone post online about licking and chewing and how it’s not actually the good, “thought processing” sign that people typically say it is… So i googled it and turns out they were right!!

Licking and chewing: submission or stress? | International Society for...

What Does 'Licking and Chewing' in Horses Mean? – The Horse

“This cluster of licking, chewing, and sometimes swallowing that you have asked about occurs right when switching back to parasympathetic after a period of sympathetic. That’s because when sympathetic control switches on, salivation ceases and the mouth and lips quickly dry. When the disturbance resolves and relaxation returns, salivation also returns. So the licking and chewing is just that simple reflexive response to deal with the salivation resuming after a period of dry mouth and lips. So, in a sense, licking and chewing do reflect relaxation, but specifically as a result of returning from a spell of acute stress or pain. People often refer to this moment as “relief.” Another medical term for it is sympathetic attenuation.”

…"These sympathetic attenuation responses are not a submission gesture per se, but they can occur within the context of an interaction where an animal shows submission. In a threatening situation, the submissive animal might lick and chew after its submissive posture or behavior successfully leads to the threatening animal backing off. "

my horse licks and chews a TONNNN both under saddle and just in her general daily life… I always kind of thought of it as mostly a good sign that she’s learning but now I know that it’s a lil more complicated than that!! I have been trying to start doing a lot more positive reinforcement with her so this is definitely good to know.

[walktrot]

An awful lot of people who should know that don’t. They probably won’t because they don’t invest much effort into keeping up with that kind of information, let alone incorporate it into their daily activities. Licking and chewing probably will appear on the list of longtime debunked misinformation, like they shouldn’t drink cold water after hard work because they are hot and sweaty and will colic.

[Bluey]

@sportyspicepony

“This cluster of licking, chewing, and sometimes swallowing that you have asked about occurs right when switching back to parasympathetic after a period of sympathetic. That’s because when sympathetic control switches on, salivation ceases and the mouth and lips quickly dry. When the disturbance resolves and relaxation returns, salivation also returns. So the licking and chewing is just that simple reflexive response to deal with the salivation resuming after a period of dry mouth and lips. So, in a sense, licking and chewing do reflect relaxation, but specifically as a result of returning from a spell of acute stress or pain. People often refer to this moment as “relief.” Another medical term for it is sympathetic attenuation.”

…"These sympathetic attenuation responses are not a submission gesture per se, but they can occur within the context of an interaction where an animal shows submission. In a threatening situation, the submissive animal might lick and chew after its submissive posture or behavior successfully leads to the threatening animal backing off. "

my horse licks and chews a TONNNN both under saddle and just in her general daily life… I always kind of thought of it as mostly a good sign that she’s learning but now I know that it’s a lil more complicated than that!! I have been trying to start doing a lot more positive reinforcement with her so this is definitely good to know.

You are right, that is more complicated gesture than NH trainers, the ones that heard about it and used it, made it sound.

We have discussed and questioned the simple NH explanation before.
As you say, to just look for that behavior as some trainers insist for all learning moments is missing the several real reasons behind that.
The horse chewing is not happy because of what went on, is happy the stress finally eased up, an important difference.

Today we are more knowledgeable, thanks for bringing this up again, for those that may not know.

[Snowdenfarm]

Coincidentally, I just listened to a Karen Rohlf podcast today about this. I will try to paraphrase her correctly: Her take is that while licking and chewing does mean there was a period of stress before it, stress is not necessarily a bad thing. Stress is a normal part of our horses’ lives whether from vying for limited resources in the wild or from standing in a stall 12 hours a day. Pressure/stress is also how we train horses. Licking and chewing is a good sign in that it shows that a) you have adequately removed the pressure/stress to reward the wanted behavior and b) the horse is able to relax in your presence and with your training technique rather than hold onto the tension. So,while she didn’t agree with the magical “thought processing” explanation, she did see it as a good barometer of how your horse is handling the necessary pressure of being handled by a human.

[Bluey]

@Snowdenfarm

Coincidentally, I just listened to a Karen Rohlf podcast today about this. I will try to paraphrase her correctly: Her take is that while licking and chewing does mean there was a period of stress before it, stress is not necessarily a bad thing. Stress is a normal part of our horses’ lives whether from vying for limited resources in the wild or from standing in a stall 12 hours a day. Pressure/stress is also how we train horses. Licking and chewing is a good sign in that it shows that a) you have adequately removed the pressure/stress to reward the wanted behavior and b) the horse is able to relax in your presence and with your training technique rather than hold onto the tension. So,while she didn’t agree with the magical “thought processing” explanation, she did see it as a good barometer of how your horse is handling the necessary pressure of being handled by a human.

I will add, better as a trainer to generally work with the least stress possible.
Use how the horse responds to any stress, part of it chewing and yawning and stretching neck out as a warning signal.
If the stress was considerable enough to cause that response and how strong that may be and how soon horse is back to regulating normally, gauge that to keep training without that more intense response to what we are doing.

When is the horse working hard, but not stressing much, when is a bit more and may be into uncomfortable territory?
Each horse may respond differently to that.

[Abbie.S]

The best explanation I ever heard of this release in horses went something like this:

“Any horse who is licking and chewing after being asked to do a thing is releasing tension he was holding. It’s up to you to figure out whether or not you helped the horse release tension he was already holding, or whether your horse is expressing how thankful he is that you aren’t asking him to do that thing anymore.”

Read: did you help the horse find the path to alleviating his stress, or did you create the stress and thus the need for the horse to self-soothe afterwards?

[WildGooseChase]

This is how I understood it as well. Licking/chewing is a sign that the brain is returning to a more relaxed state. I love how she put it with pressure and release. I’m going to have to tune into her podcast!

[RW06]

+1. One of the first things I learned when we adopted our nervous, senior dog was that yawning, licking and chewing are all flavors of stress. Always wondered why it was a considered a sign of relaxation in my horse but not my dog

[Bluey]

I watched a clinician running a horse ragged in the little pen while he was talking away.
Horse kept trying to stop, he kept shooing him on and on.
When he finally let horse stop, horse dripping sweat and sides heaving, horse started chewing and fellow seemed very happy to point to that, saying that is what he wanted a horse to do, meant he had learned his lesson.
He never said what lesson horse learned.

[walktrot]

Isn’t there a hormone (or something) involved that kicks off saliva production which is what causes the licking?

What really bugs me bigtime is a local, popular NH trainer doing clinics. Actually I am at different barn now so I won’t have to see it anymore. She shows everyone how to do something and explains all of it. Except the part where she strokes her horse’s neck, usually, or does something that is a good-boy reward. She most likely does it unconsciously. No one else does it. It’s not in the script.
So the poor horses are out there trying to do what they think they are supposed to do. What they get is an uninterrupted string of cues with no pause for a little reward. It was even more painful watching them practice in the arena. No one seemed to be getting much better.

[SuzieQNutter]

Argh have you ever gotten a horse in that does not know what good boy or girl means? That does not know that a stroke along the neck is a good thing.

My mind boggled. I do not know how a horse can be trained without these things.

I was starting to despair. I could not get her to bring her head down. I did not have a treat as I had not needed one before.

Finally I saw her close her eye. Success. She realised that saying Good girl was a good thing. A bit of carrot the next day and she really learned that good girl was a good thing. That a stroke along the neck was a good thing. She went on in leaps and bounds from there.

[secuono]

But you do not NEED to go that far to where you cause stress to teach a horse/make it do something. At least, for most things & many situations, there are ways to teach without stepping it up until stress happens.

…this was supposed to be a reply to the Karen podcast paraphrasing post…

[walktrot]

I try to limit training to about 15 seconds per day. I started holding onto the noseband of his halter when he popped his head up. I’m not that tall. It became a head down cue without much thought on my part. It was a revelation when I put my hand on the noseband and he settled down, sometimes with a little licking.

[Snowdenfarm]

@secuono I hear what you are saying and I feel the same way, but the podcast made me look at it differently. She posits that even withholding a treat/reward until a desired behavior is exhibited is a stressor. She is a huuuuuuge believer in a truly mentally/emotionally/physically safe and happy horse. In her opinion, the secret is to ask infrequently, reward frequently and go back to doing nothing quickly. I hope I am paraphrasing her correctly. Anyone interested should listen to the podcast to get all of the nuances.

[blue_heron]

Can we get a link?

[Snowdenfarm]

Well, I subscribe to her podcast through Apple Podcasts. But by just googling “Karen Rohlf podcast”, I see that you can listen through her website as well. It is Episode 31, Pressure.

[Obsidian_Fire]

This is a really interesting topic. Thanks for the discussion and links.

[S1969]

@secuono

But you do not NEED to go that far to where you cause stress to teach a horse/make it do something. At least, for most things & many situations, there are ways to teach without stepping it up until stress happens.

Training always involves some “stress” - horses or dogs or kids or your husband.

The stress can be “not understanding what is being asked” and the animal trying various responses “did you want this?” “No?..ok what about this?”

That isn’t necessarily bad. It just is. When the lightbulb goes on, and/or the animal is in rest, they may feel relief from stress. But it doesn’t mean that they were incredibly anxious in the first place, or that stress is a bad thing.

This conversation feels like the one where “negative reinforcement is bad” discussion when training dogs. Negative reinforcement isn’t a bad thing. (And it’s what we primarily use for training horses.) You can be bad at it, or you can do it badly, but that doesn’t mean it’s bad. Same for the word “stress.”

[sportyspicepony]

@walktrot

She shows everyone how to do something and explains all of it. Except the part where she strokes her horse’s neck, usually, or does something that is a good-boy reward. She most likely does it unconsciously. No one else does it. It’s not in the script.

This is so common drives me nuts in dog classes… I do agility with my dog and so many people just NEVER say “good boy” at any point throughout the process and then don’t understand when the dog doesn’t wanna try anymore. Positive reinforcement is really the ONLY way to train agility because you physically can’t force the dog to jump the jumps, but it’s a lot more complicated with riding horses under saddle because the very basis of riding is them moving away from pressure. I’m just now starting to explore a little bit of +R training with my horse but I love learning about this stuff!!

[walktrot]

@S1969

Training always involves some “stress” - horses or dogs or kids or your husband.

I bought my horse in 2001 and we are still together 20 years later. I got lucky and avoided Parelli. John Lyons made much more sense and I still draw on his methods today. It’s Conditioned Response Training not NH. There was a terrific discussion board on the website. It was jam-packed with information and was very “chatty” in the evenings.

From time to time a post would show up: “My husband does …, what should I do?” An experienced member (definitely not me) explained it: “Get your Ground Control Manual out. Start at the beginning. Train your husband the same way you train your horse.” They swore it works. Create a lesson plan with steps for the skill. Remember that 2 steps forward and one step back is normal. If they are having problems with the current activity go back to something they do well and work through the steps again. Pressure and release. The 3-Second Rule: That’s a horse’s attention span, and apparently some husbands also. After 3 seconds they don’t connect the release with the pressure/cue. Use licking and chewing to help gauge the stress level. Pick your own rewards.