Linda Hollingsworth-Jones licenced American Légèreté instructor reflects on some modern trainers and clinicians.

[belgianWBLuver]

Have to get on a plane guys but if this thread lives, I’ll follow and comment when I can.

[Heinz_57]

After reading her “reflections”, my first thought was that Ms. H-J should stay in her own lane. The clinicians she’s referencing are obviously western-oriented and unless she’s produced successful horses in those pursuits, it just reads like a poorly-veiled self-promotion.

She is teaching a clinic very near me soon. I am busy that weekend, but if I was not I’d consider auditing just for informational purposes. I am acquainted with someone that has been attending the teacher’s clinics but honestly have not seen her ride since before beginning the program, so don’t have any personal observations.

[pluvinel]

@teamfire

The comment about the rider from Jerez made me go dig up my photos from the school in Jerez. When I was there, I found that, like anywhere, there are good moments, bad moments, and I didnt notice any Legerete techniques if that’s what the implication was? Great moments were easily identified as great, without having to think what school of training they followed.

here are some moments I took myself while watching their warmup.

A couple of points…Jan Bemelmans was the trainer of the Spanish team…the Spanish have been actively promoting themselves into the “competition dressage” arena as seen by Fuego, Juan Matute…etc. so I can’t deny that germanic influences have taken a hold in Spanish riding.

As far as my specific interaction with the Spanish rider, there was no “legerete” (small case) in this guy’s riding. I had a horse I wanted to sell in training with him and having had the “training” in this horse’s background was part of my marketing plan. I was NOT happy with how my horse felt and rode after he got “trained”…but he got sold.

I know someone who travelled to Spain to ride with him (several times) who now lessons with a French trainer.

ThIs Spanish rider’s remarks were in reference to “the look”…eg., that Americans have taken what is winning in competition as what “dressage” looks like…as illustrated by the Damon Hill video vs the “backyard horse.”

[alicen]

Am I correct in understanding that Philippe Karl is the founder of the Ecole de Legerete from which L H-J has been licensed? All theory and competitive dressage standards aside, what do people think of his and his student’s riding as demonstrated in this video? www.youtube.com/watch?v=jps284rd2DI

[soloudinhere]

@belgianWBLuver

Thanks for your comment Soloudinhere. She is not randomly commenting on modern trainers in general, only those who use less that kind methods. There are many, for example, in my area english and western who run horses ragged in a round pen before working then yet another 2 hours. Or those who use rollkur in the western world where it is really popular. Etc…

Légèreté is not a random method. It has been around since the early 2000’s. It came to the US in 2013. No it is not the Landgestüt Warendorf. But it is a legitimate and recognized method in Europe.

In the history of horses and people riding them, the year 2000 is approximately yesterday.

[soloudinhere]

@alicen

Am I correct in understanding that Philippe Karl is the founder of the Ecole de Legerete from which L H-J has been licensed? All theory and competitive dressage standards aside, what do people think of his and his student’s riding as demonstrated in this video? www.youtube.com/watch?v=jps284rd2DI

I see a bunch of horses who can’t even seem to stand still when instructed so doesn’t lend a lot of faith to the rest of the training.

[alicen]

What struck me the most was Karl’s piaffe (?) which had the front feet landing before the hind feet?

[pluvinel]

@alicen

Am I correct in understanding that Philippe Karl is the founder of the Ecole de Legerete from which L H-J has been licensed? All theory and competitive dressage standards aside, what do people think of his and his student’s riding as demonstrated in this video? www.youtube.com/watch?v=jps284rd2DI

The posted video is pretty poor quality. I have no problem with Philippe Karl’s riding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OgBfZhzm18

The most interesting contrast of Karl’s method with the “germanic” method is in the DVD “Classical Versus Klassique” with Christoph Hess and Philippe Karl.

There are some interesting contrasts in the instructions give by Karl v Hess, specifically for a student of Hess’. If I recall the video, it was one of the last riders. The horse improved tremendously.

[alicen]

@pluvinel

The most interesting contrast of Karl’s method with the “germanic” method is in the DVD “Classical Versus Klassique” with Christoph Hess and Philippe Karl…

I take it “klassique” is like writing Amerika? But please help with the piaffe that I see in that video?

[Buckshot1]

@soloudinhere

and if theres only two “licensed” trainers in the US, how could you work with “several?”

You crack me up - there’s a big old world outside the US of A :lol::lol::lol:

[pluvinel]

@alicen

I take it “klassique” is like writing Amerika? But please help with the piaffe that I see in that video?

Which video…You tell me the problem with this piaffe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OgBfZhzm18

[alicen]

@pluvinel

Which video…You tell me the problem with this piaffe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OgBfZhzm18

I asked first.

[pluvinel]

@alicen

I asked first.

And I still don’t know what video you’re talking about.

If you mean this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jps284rd2DI

there are some good piaffes and some sorry piaffes…none any worse than what you see in current competition.

[alicen]

@pluvinel

And I still don’t know what video you’re talking about

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jps284rd2DI

whoa, if you don’t know which video I meant, why did you say it was poor quality?

[alicen]

@pluvinel

If you mean this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jps284rd2DIthere are some good piaffes and some sorry piaffes…none any worse than what you see in current competition.

But. as a rare live show, this is all we get to see: “sorry” piaffes.

[pluvinel]

@alicen

But. as a rare live show, this is all we get to see: “sorry” piaffes.

Do you have something against PK? The video shows some good stuff and some not so good stuff…no worse than what you see in shows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jps284rd2DI

00:50 - Nice piaffe
01:00 - Nice passage to extended trot
01:36 - Nice passage to stuck piaffe to nice passage
02:05 - Irregular piaffe
02:20 - Nice piaffe
02:48 - Nice extended trot to passage

If anything, my criticism is on the crappy choreography that did nothing to highlight his teachings.

There were some good moving horses that were too far from the camera to comment on.

I have seen the old VHS series Karl did where he shows in the progression of a horse he was training and I don’t recall any issues with the riding.

Again, I have never taken any lessons with PK or his advocates.

[soloudinhere]

@-Buckshot-

You crack me up - there’s a big old world outside the US of A :lol::lol::lol:

In the, oh, 15 years I have been on this board before you came along, it’s come to my attention that since the Chronicle is a US magazine, that the vast majority of membership is also in the US.

So nice of you to grace us with your foreign presence, but I went to see what the requirements are for a license.

Pay for 10 clinics over 3 years, prove you can walk/trot/canter and flex in the halt. That’s it. There’s your license, to call yourself a “classical master.”

[soloudinhere]

@alicen

Am I correct in understanding that Philippe Karl is the founder of the Ecole de Legerete from which L H-J has been licensed? All theory and competitive dressage standards aside, what do people think of his and his student’s riding as demonstrated in this video? www.youtube.com/watch?v=jps284rd2DI

She’s got a “foundation” license which is the lowest level (apparently) and basically requires you to be able to ride a passable training level.

I hope people aren’t paying for her to distribute this knowledge.

[Pembroke]

Honestly, I can’t get over how scrawny PK’s (supposedly) upper-level horse is in that video. Practically no muscles to speak of.

Trainers like Sylvia Loch and Heather Moffett also take a lot from the French/Portuguese school of thought, and their training philosophy is completely different and actually much closer to the German way.

I am sure that PK is a very good rider and trainer. You can see as much from the short video of him riding alone. And I’m sure there would be plenty to learn from HIM. His followers? I’m not so sure.

[pluvinel]

@alicen

I take it “klassique” is like writing Amerika? But please help with the piaffe that I see in that video?

Actually is it Klassisch…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk41LGa3VpI

One-on-one discussions between Philippe Karl and Christoph Hess with examples of riding from their students on average horses. It is a very interesting video.