Could someone advice some good articles on it to me ?
And would this be a linebreeding:
Damsire of stallion: Prince Thatch xx
Sire of grand dam of chosen mare: Prince Thatch xx
What would one expect form this kind of cross ?
Chosen mare: Sandro Hit - Rouletto - Prince Thatch xx
I am sure my answer will get the TB folks up in arms, but if breeding for top of sport in dressage or jumping, I would not line breed on a TB - even one as well regarded as Prince Thatch. My understanding is that he was a wonderful damsire, but he didn’t leave stallion sons of note, which to me is an indication they (Hanoverian Verband) didn’t want a prominence of his blood in the breeding population.
Also - with Prince Thatch twice in the pedigree in combination with Sandro Hit, I would wonder what kind of hindleg you would get in the foal.
There’s an interesting set of articles here with pedigree analysis
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/index.html
the line breeding one is quite fascinating actually
Molly, the link doesn’t work. Can you cut & paste the article?
they’re pretty big - go to this link
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/breeding-principles.html
and scroll down to the bottom where there are links to, for example, sex-balancing your pedigree
Thank you, I will read that one.
Interesting thought about the hindleg issue, but I see where it comes from by just looking at the sires listed.
I know 4 generations of that SH mare’s damline. The breeding decision to breed the Rouletto mare to SH was based on the fact, that the hindleg conformation and walk are very good in the damline (including the PT mare in the line.) Both the mare and her fullbrother who was qualified for the BC have correct hindlegs and good walk.
In the case of a mare (and mareline) that is strong in the hind leg area as well as the walk, I think the risk of a weaker hind end and poor walk should be minimized.
Something else to consider is the neck. A less vertical neck set is a very strong characteristic in the TB gene pool. It is very possible that you may see a reduction in the quality of the neck placement. I seem to remember that SH is not one to use to improve neck so it could be in his lineage as well. Another point is that you may get a more “lively” sensitive type but that is not necessarily a bad thing as many people want this in their riding horse. Just some things to consider…
The cool thing about genetics is that it is random. The bad thing about genetics is that it is random. Every generation is a result of a somewhat random combination of the previous generation. Hence why you can have a famous stallion and his full brothers are only average stallions. I think line breeding is the way to go to consolidate desirable traits consistently. The success of Holstein can be attributed to the C,C and L redundancy along with the mare lines.
Your foal will have 6 other animals in the 3rd gen that are also contributing. You can get traits hiding in the first gen but usually not the 2nd gen. If you are worried, look at the other offspring of the sire and grand dam for the short comings of Prince Thatch. If they are persistent than you run the risk. If they are not showing up then they probably didn’t get passed on. If you think about it at the 3rd generation level, you have 8 horses and 16 full sequences of genes to choose from. Out of all that, only 1 set is passed to your foal. There is a huge amount of randomness to it all, even with good parents. Real inbreeding has to have much more condensed breeding to be consistent.
Thanks for posting this I have had fun reading a number of articles. I thought this was interesting but I probably need to re-read a few times.
I think I already know the answer to this but here goes. I absolutely love Hochadel. I understand that his frozen semen should be available in the US in the Spring. I have a direct Donnerhall daughter that I would want to breed to him. I know they double and triple Donnerhall in Germany successfully. I am afraid that my breeding would be too close? Please help me. :0)
The danger with doubling and tripling on Donnerhall too close, is you might end up with a pretty heavy type foal.
It has been successful, but only when the dam produces mostly lighter foals.
Donnerhall was heavier and very talented. I wonder is finer is better, or just in style?
But what if you get his talent too…
I would be concerned about putting SH on a TB (mostly) mare. SH tends to make hot, sensitive foals and he doesn’t seem to add bone. You need a mare with a good rear end to cross with SH.
I have a SH mare that I bred and she has her mom’s great rear end (said mare has produced two approved stallions as well), the neck was improved by SH, I think the shoulder was improved, the legs were made longer and the bone is a bit lighter (which was OK) but she is definitely a little more sensitive even though the dam throws a GREAT personality.
The mare was a well bred DWB that was about 25% TB and 5% Shagya Arab.
I would be concerned about putting SH on a TB (mostly) mare. SH tends to make hot, sensitive foals and he doesn’t seem to add bone. You need a mare with a good rear end to cross with SH.
I have a SH mare that I bred and she has her mom’s great rear end (said mare has produced two approved stallions as well), the neck was improved by SH, I think the shoulder was improved, the legs were made longer and the bone is a bit lighter (which was OK) but she is definitely a little more sensitive even though the dam throws a GREAT personality.
The mare was a well bred DWB that was about 25% TB and 5% Shagya Arab.
Geogia I am a bit confused:
I am not intending to breed SH on a TB mare.
The mare I have is SH - Rouletto - Prince Thatch xx. As said the the Rouletto mare has loads of substance, is easy as a pie and has a good hindleg plus a good walk in the her damline. Rouletto is a Holstein stallion.
Another information people may not know: Prince Thatch did a 300day test at Adelheidsdorf/Celle. He finished third in the rideablity department. Before that he was in training on the local reacetrack and I know that they put inexperienced riders on him as they could be sure they would all come back in a full piece and would have fun.
I go back to read the articles and hope that some of the TB breeders that are more familiar with linebreeding will come to give their opinion on linebreeding as such and whether one needs to expect in higher percentages the traits of the doubled genes or not.
Not an expert but since you personally like the individuals and know the damline - why not? I think it is a very interesting combination and would look forward to seeing the result!
I don’t think that’s too much - particularly if you know the individuals.
Though Sandro Hit might need a horse with a more active hind-leg (I’m not a dressage person so I can’t testify to this), I will say he himself has wonderful conformation, tight legs, and hooves. If you have a line with good mechanics, I wouldn’t hesitate to breed to him. And while they may be forward, as a female rider I like this - but that’s a preference thing. I also like some cockiness in a horse, SH has that in spades.
I always wanted to look into his gets soundness, as I really do think he can improve some of the issues modern WB’s have with dexterity. Have a few dressage-friends, and they find it very frustrating to have a horse who breaks b/w 8-12, when they finally have the training to get past 3rd level. This is the story over & over again. Wouldn’t be surprised to see SH the dam-sire of some very nice horses down the road. Not to mention, a horse that stays sound can sire more horses. Sure, might be a # thing, but you can not discount it.
Many stallions out there are not nearly as correct as SH - and you need some of his correctness, particularly with this trend towards extravagant front-ends. Nice to look at, until they blow tendon after tendon throwing those legs around. Just some observations, curious to see how they compare to all the dressage folks opinions.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong but it is my understanding that SH and his sons are very per potent at passing on that big flashy front end movement?
Not sure if everyone’s reading correctly…she’s thinking about crossing a Prince Thatch grandson (Don Principe, from another thread?) on a Sandro Hit/Rouletto/Prince Thatch mare. PT is the line breeding, not SH. Personally, I think 3x4 line breeding is the way to do it if you’re going to…far enough back to still give influence, and not close enough to worry about inbreeding.
I realize that but when Goodmorning mentioned the trend toward extravagant front ends, I interpreted it as them thinking that SH does not pass that trait on. Sorry to hijack the thread but I just wanted to mention that my understanding was quite the opposite :-)…
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