Lipizanners - Just wondering why you don't see

I bought a Lipizzan nearly two years ago and have gotten very involved in the registry, and in promoting the breed, in just that short time.

I didn’t know much about them and hadn’t seen many in dressage showing, either. But I feel my horse has so many great attributes that I’d like to see more people consider them as a dressage partner.

The reasons they’re not seen around very much are as said above. They’re not as tall as what’s preferred or as expected in the dressage ring today. As a baroque breed, they tend toward collection coming easily but lengthening, not so much. At the lower levels the lengthening coming easy is preferred and that ground-covering trot is where the gait scores start. So to jump in at lower levels on a Lipizzan and accept that you might already be at a deficit when you enter at A, well that takes some weighing of the good points against that deficit, which is something everyone who’s showing a non-WB has to take into consideration. So, there’s that.

And of course, as already said, they’re a rare breed. Maybe 1050 to 1200 individuals estimated in North America at this time. And worldwide, 5500 to 7000.

The factors above, as far as their height and their movement, are part of what drove the market down. There were never very many breeders anyway, and the few that were very committed in the past few decades ran up against those roadblocks in marketing their horses. People wanted taller. People wanted floating movement and “8” gaits. So the breeders that were in it, in several cases, just quit making more.

That led to the situation we have now which is that there are very few Lipizzans listed on sales sites, in the ideal age range that most horse-shopping riders prefer to buy. There are some new breeders coming along now and some others have stepped up, and so-- in about four or five years-- there will be a lot more young stock than what you see being marketed in 2015.

Another consideration with an aging population of horse breeders is that so many of them still just don’t “get” that the Internet is how horse people shop nowadays. They don’t update websites or worry about where their stock is advertised.

It’s a breed that attracts people who are enamored of its attributes, so many breeders have-- for decades-- simply relied on word of mouth to make sales. They feel that, if their youngsters go to buyers who want Lipizzans more than anything, then, that’s a win. They aren’t concerned with how the horse is used, or shown, or with any sort of ambassadorship for the breed. And so, in many cases, youngsters went on to become breeding stock for the people who bought them, or to be enjoyed at home but never shown out and about.

And that leads to another consideration with a breed with such a storied history, one that attracts people who dreamed of a Lipizzan ever since they were little. It’s a $$ issue, because what happens is that people save every penny and then buy the Lipizzan they can afford which is a weanling or yearling, or maybe an unstarted two year old. They finally “OWN” the dream. But, they have nothing in the bank left over for the training and the showing, and the real expenses of bringing along a young horse that once had the potential to star in its class, be it dressage or driving or something else. Instead, the person gets overwhelmed and that individual horse’s potential is lost, as far as the ambassador it might have been had a trainer been more involved.

So there are all these factors involved. Another thing that happened was that the “World Famous” touring show, which crisscrossed the Country for deceases, went out of business in or around 2010-11. Whether people loved or poo-poohed their performances, they were providing a level of ambassadorship and were generating an interest, which is now gone.

Anyway all of those things and more are part of the rarity. It’s too bad because they are intelligent, talented, willing and athletic horses. They have great feet, are not prone to colic or other sensitivities, and they live a long time and work late into their careers.

Several of us in the registry (USLF) have implemented and have been managing an ad campaign designed to at least put the idea of considering Lipizzans into the minds of competitive dressage riders. We have ads in the USDF Connection magazine, and a half page in the USDF Member Guide, and in other places. We had ads in the “baroque” issues of Horse Illustrated and Dressage Today, this year. We have more ads coming up.

I’m curious whether people who get the USDF publication or Dressage Today have noticed these ads. Anyone? We are planning to expand to some online banner ads, and are trying to identify prime sites. This website (COTH) has been discussed.

My hope is that, if we can continue with this kind of branding and general marketing, it will generate some interest over time which will have an impact when some of the young stock that are weanlings and yearlings now will be for sale as newly under saddle horses in three and four years.

It’s really a cycle, as Shagya said above. There are few horses because the market isn’t there. The market isn’t there, because there are few horses. One feeds the other, and many Lipizzan breeders who were once enthusiastic have been giving up when it comes to making more of these great horses.

1 Like

The few that I have seen seem to be pricey for the quality & training relative to the current competition ring dressage market.

In addition, the couple that I have seen in person in the ring all had a wicked paddle. I’m sure they all don’t, but my bias from personal experience would be against looking at them unless I stumbled across one randomly.

I have known (and ridden) several Lipizzans as well as half-Lipizzans. They are very rideable horses, are sturdy, and take up the leg quite well. I am 5’8" and have not felt too large for the ones that I have sat on, even though they are smaller horses.

Also, Amanda Johnson in the WI/IL area is showing a Lipizzan stallion at Grand Prix (Pluto VI Andorella).

I think that price is a big factor. The ones I have seen for sale are in the 15-25k category and are only schooled for training/1st level. For that same price point and level of training, the WBs for sale tend to be flashier and more marketable.

Price wise, I found them to be advertised at less than, or at least comparable to, the prices of PRE youngsters, of which there are many more examples on sales sites to be found.

Really, depending on location, you can find many PRE two year olds in the 20- 25K category. That was too much for me to even begin the dickering process for a horse not yet under saddle. Unstarted Lipizzans can be found between 5K to 12K. Not cheap but not as much as a lot of the PREs and Lusitanos.

That WBs are flashier for similar money cannot be denied. People want the flashy.

Another comment about price: Because of the lack of ambassadors, many Lipizzan breeders are very willing to negotiate if the buyer is planning to show and to work with a trainer, or is a trainer. I doubt this applies to individual sellers with one horse that didn’t work out, that type of thing. But for breeders I’ve definitely found this to be the case.

Here is a piece I wrote that appeared earlier this year in Dressage Today. I talked about horse shopping and my reasons for picking a Lipizzan over a WB.

Although it doesn’t really get into the issues of why there aren’t more Lipizzans, it relates to some of this discussion.

http://dressagetoday.com/article/love-for-the-lipizzan-29125

Good analysis, Silverbridge. I have seen the ad campaign you describe.

Another question …are the Lipps used for jumping…or rather how are they at show jumping or even eventing?

Cheryl

Thanks for all the info and the link SB!

Great post from Silverbridge.

I might suggest two additional promotional avenues:

  1. A great facebook group that is full of high quality Lipizzaner pictures. Babies, competition horses, some SRS, etc. Get people enjoying and sharing those and I think it can significantly increase demand. I am thinking of a breeder who has been sharing fantastic high quality pictures of her baby horses and how that has ensured quick sales for current and future babies. You need in particular a breeder who has a great camera and who will go out and take those pictures, to the point that if you don’t have that, the association might want to recruit someone to do it, even if it means you’re buying someone a camera with a high quality lens or paying for/sharing the cost of some professional shoots.

  2. Sponsoring a promising rider/Lipizzaner pair to help them get to competitions and maybe high profile clinics. This is potentially difficult politically… but honestly if people see a successful horse out there to emulate, it will get them thinking about looking for their own.

I’m excited for the work you’re doing, Silverbridge, and I hope it is seen as a substantial success.

There is still excitement out there. My own daughter is obsessed by them and just completed a really impressive and ambitious pencil drawing of a Lipizzaner in a courbette for her HS art class. I’m not sure exactly where her interest came from, even.

I’ve been following a farm on FB that raises Lusitanos for quite awhile now…another gorgeous horse…will have to look up some Lipps there too.

Cheryl

Some Facebook pages:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/576785205773283/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/lipizzaners/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/164858790232073/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/356453887870004/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/143348215722094/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/558836930856902/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1615388472074022/

https://www.facebook.com/MVFLipizzans/?fref=ts

https://www.facebook.com/thetempellipizzans/?fref=ts

I don’t know of any Lipizzans competing at Jumping or Eventing in the US. I do see, on Facebook, lots of pics of North American Lipizzans schooling over jumps. I know there is a competitive jumper in Europe.

The USLF recognizes Lipizzan crosses in its awards programs and it registers partbreds (designated as such). So an Arab/Lipizzan or TB/Lipizzan could compete in for example endurance or eventing, as a registered half Lipizzan. I’m sure it has happened but I don’t know of an example.

The prices are pretty high relative to the competitive record and/or potential of the horses. If you are looking for something for the show ring you can get more bang for your buck in other breeds. One of the Facebook groups Silverbridge linked to featured a 15 hand 10 year old 1st/2nd level gelding for $40,000. You can find a 3rd/4th level warmblood of a similar age for the same price. If you are willing to consider off breeds you might even find an arab or something going PSG for that price.

[QUOTE=emipou;8403687]
BTW- you can buy Lipizzans from the SRS for relatively cheap. [/QUOTE]

Or you can support US breeders and buy one from them.
http://www.uslipizzan.org/

There were a couple at the PanAm Games this year and they did a great job!!However in terms of movement, expression and suspension, didn’t compare with the WBs at the top of the placings. Mind you the riders were less experienced at international levels as well, so that may contribute to the difference. I would think at the lower to mid levels at least they would be a solid choice

I saw the ads too , nice work on the ads and the article, too.

[QUOTE=Chocoholic;8404636]
One of the Facebook groups Silverbridge linked to featured a 15 hand 10 year old 1st/2nd level gelding for $40,000. .[/QUOTE]

You scrolled through the links and found the highest-priced Lipizzan anyone’s ever seen listed in America, and by, evidently, the craziest-ever seller, to use as an example to make a point? There are delusional sellers of Friesians and PREs and Arabians and Dutch WBs, too. And everything else.

Yes they tend to be overpriced. I ran into that when I was shopping too. And yep, sellers were insulted when I compared their asking prices to similarly trained horses of other breeds. I’ll concede that several breeders and sellers do think that their for-sale Lipizzan ought to command a premium for no other reason that its breed, no matter what it’s done (or has yet to do). That is definitely a consideration.

But that 40K 2nd level horse doesn’t represent what’s typical of that FB page or of any other Lipi for sale around the U.S at this time.

[QUOTE=Cheryl;8404497]
I’ve been following a farm on FB that raises Lusitanos for quite awhile now…another gorgeous horse…will have to look up some Lipps there too.

Cheryl[/QUOTE]
OP - I’m a somewhat new convert to the Lusitano - part-leased one for a year, had a chance to show him, and fell in love. Bought him a couple months ago.

This horse is perfect for me - 15’3, great work ethic, brave as anything, capable enough to get me my silver medal - schooling the PSG now.

The Iberian types can be sensitive - I’ve learned to be a quieter rider. We don’t drill things too many times. The good news is they are smart, so drilling not necessary!

Every day I get off smiling. Did I mention that he’s a stallion? I’ve learned again in my advanced age never say “never” as in “I’d never own a stallion”, lol.

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8403699]
I’m curious what you’ve heard. Other than maybe having some difficulties with extensions, I haven’t heard much else.[/QUOTE]

I’ve known a few people who owned Lippis (and one with a Half-Lippi) and all of them say they are really difficult horses. So I’ve heard similar things from Lippi owners. I hope that isn’t par for the breed, but I suspect it has something to do with why they haven’t become more popular. From what I can tell, they are VERY intelligent, but don’t “suffer fools lightly”, whereas most of the other Baroque breeds are more forgiving types. About 12 years ago, an area trainer imported several (well, he didn’t import them, but he ended up with them as they were being imported), and I don’t think he was able to make any of those horses into Ammy friendly rides.

They are an interesting breed with a lot of wonderful history - I have always wondered why they weren’t better promoted. The Friesian and the PRE (Andalusian) were very rare horses in the US 15 years ago, and have become quite popular. Heck, it wasn’t ALL that long ago when Warmbloods were quite rare here!

From what I hear though WB’s have their own issues too…spooky, grudge holders etc…and TB’s have their own quirks etc. Then I am sure you can get into family lines of any breed that are a can of worms too.

Cheryl

I’ve had experience with 4 of them. Very sensitive animals, my favorite was a stallion but he was very particular about his riders and very dominant/aggressive with other stallions (but super sweet with humans). I loved that horse. The mares were not exactly easy-peasy either. Definitely not a breed of horse I would consider ammy friendly. Knowing all this though, I would still get one.

They lack the style and type currently favored in competitive dressage. As do andalusians and lusitanos. You see very few of those, and there are considerably more of them than lips.