Lipizanners - Just wondering why you don't see

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=Cheryl;8404974]
From what I hear though WB’s have their own issues too…spooky, grudge holders etc…and TB’s have their own quirks etc. Then I am sure you can get into family lines of any breed that are a can of worms too.

Cheryl[/QUOTE]

Oh, most definitely - that is why so many of the Baroque horses are becoming so popular (Friesians, Andalusians, Lusitanos)! Because they have a more forgiving personality type, less reactivity. These are all generalizations, of course, but I do think it is a big reason people leave the WB for a different breed/type.

@ladyj79;8405115

They lack the style and type currently favored in competitive dressage. As do andalusians and lusitanos. You see very few of those, and there are considerably more of them than lips.

Well, I see a LOT of Baroque horses here in California competing? And often doing well. The WBs still outnumber other breeds, of course, but they are there at all levels. Ridden by both ammies and pro riders.

[Cheryl]

I watched the Mclay finals (live stream) and was kinda surprised to see all these kids on WB’s…I’ve said it elsewhere here, I think some of them were over mounted.

George Morris was one of the commentators and he kinda lamented now and then about the lack of TB’s in the ring.

I’ve read a couple of articles about the trend for all this outward extension in the dressage ring actually being incorrect in movement in classical dressage.

Cheryl

[Silverbridge]

I

[QUOTE=Megaladon;8405077]
I’ve had experience with 4 of them. Very sensitive animals, my favorite was a stallion but he was very particular about his riders and very dominant/aggressive with other stallions (but super sweet with humans). I loved that horse. The mares were not exactly easy-peasy either. Definitely not a breed of horse I would consider ammy friendly. Knowing all this though, I would still get one.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. My experience has been the opposite. My horse especially and Lips in general are extremely amateur friendly. The compact build and natural cadence and breadth are big pluses. But the forgiving character in the way that Mysticoak described makes them phenomenal ammie mounts.

Many Lips around the Country are lent to amateurs and youths of all different levels in order for the client or friend to meet riding skill goals or even show goals. The stallion Conversano Mima showed to GP in the PNW just this year under an ammie. Showing aside they’re used as schoolies to teach uneducated riders the feel of correct collection and contact and timing and seat. They’re really well suited to the purpose and not a pro horse at all in that way. Typically.

Of course as with any horse be it WB or Arab or Lipizzan it depends I its start. Another thing that happens with breeds that people covet, is the Lipizzan purchased cheaply as a two year old gets moved along after the inexperienced owner gets overwhelmed. You can find these horses in the five to ten age range on Dreamhorse or even craigslist. Little or no saddle time, with obvious issues and at project-horse prices.

These are the individuals too many people encounter and who contribute to that complicated and stubborn reputation that’s out there. I heard it too but after I became more immersed I realized what led to the perception.

Bad starts happen with any breed or type. But when the breed is rare to begin with, and when people with limited young-horse knowledge are imagining themselves to be purchasing living carousel horses, the reputation is affected everywhere.

With correct training the baroque breeds are phenomenal amateur horses. I think that’s the main reason people ride and show them, even knowing the movement isn’t favored on the score sheet. The loyalty and willingness are the trade off.

[Magicboy]

I totally agree, Silverbridge. I ride PREs and see the same issues…the colt purchased, not well started, then turned over at a lower price.

One difference might be that lots of Iberian horses are worked in western disciplines and tack but are successful because o f their personalities and sought after for their beauty. The last show I attended a few months back has dozens f Iberians competing, an increase turning up in the last 2-3 years

[Abbie.S]

Honestly, when it all comes down to it, the market is driven by what people want, and what people want is often driven by what will place will in the ring. Warmbloods are what generally places well, they are what’s en vogue in the dressage circuit, and thus they are what people want.

If dressage was routinely judged as it should be, the horse against itself based on the standards of the given test, you would probably see a much greater variety of breeds in the ring, especially at upper levels.

[Hulk]

I agree with Megaladon. The Lipps I have seen and worked with were definitely less ammy friendly than the Friesians, Andies, and Lusitanos. They are very smart, and very sensitive. I have found the Friesians and the Andies by far more forgiving. That being said I would not hesitate to buy a Lipp for myself at any given time. I believe they are an absolute treasure for a true horseperson to own.

[swgarasu]

I am interested in the breed and would love to try one, but have never had the chance to ride one. I think they are not super popular for a lot of reasons, many of which have been mentioned- small numbers/limited availability, height, and movement. I actually think another reason (and probably last on the list) is that most are grey- I know they come in other colors, but I hardly ever see them even when I do see the actual horses or ads for lippizans. Some people don’t really like grey- it’s not my favorite color, though I wouldn’t pass on them for that. But it is a lot of work to get grey horses very clean, and there can be issues with melanomas.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8403673]
They are smaller, rarer, tend to be expensive, and while they have great talent for collection, they often struggle with extensions.[/QUOTE]

I think this is it. And less-experienced shoppers are wowwed by big gaits and look right past nicer horses that don’t have that WOW front end.

[2Below]

Silverbridge-great article and I agree with your previous posts. My trainer is a recent breeder of Lips (and one of her stallions is on the ad in Connection). I feel we are ready for an influx of these horses, not just because I’ve seen the beautiful babies my trainer is producing, (one of which is coming home with me this winter), but many AA’s are discovering the giant, huge moving WB is not right for them. I know plenty of AA women that are selling their WBs and getting sport ponies, pony crosses, PREs and Lusis. When some of these Lips grow up, (get gelded!), get some training and show experience, I believe we will see more of them in the rings. I think their size is a selling point, not a detriment: easy keepers, barefoot, they fit in show stalls and normal trailers and an average size woman can sit their gaits comfortably. These horses may not be tall, but they take up tons of leg. I have a couple friends nearly 6 ft tall riding 14.2-15 hand Lips and they look beautiful on them.

[Pipkin]

They are beautiful.

I wouldn’t hesitate to own one if I a- had the money to buy one, and b- had the money to pay a groom to keep it clean. Where I live is a sea of mud 6 months of the year, I honestly wouldn’t fancy owning a grey horse!

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Pipkin;8405756]
They are beautiful.

I wouldn’t hesitate to own one if I a- had the money to buy one, and b- had the money to pay a groom to keep it clean. Where I live is a sea of mud 6 months of the year, I honestly wouldn’t fancy owning a grey horse![/QUOTE]

you mean a dark brown horse. :lol:

[Pipkin]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8405762]
you mean a dark brown horse. :lol:[/QUOTE]

No joke. Mine look like this at the minute - http://safaritalk.net/uploads/1305882144/gallery_1_155_93369.jpg

[Megaladon]

[QUOTE=Silverbridge;8405288]
I

Interesting. My experience has been the opposite. My horse especially and Lips in general are extremely amateur friendly. The compact build and natural cadence and breadth are big pluses. But the forgiving character in the way that Mysticoak described makes them phenomenal ammie mounts. [/QUOTE]

Well, if you re-read Mystic’s post, you will find that our opinions/experiences seem to be quite similar–Mystic’s just put it much more elegantly. And I have to say I totally agree with the statement “don’t suffer fools gladly”, to me that would be the Lipizzans I met in a nutshell.

[Silverbridge]

I guess we’ve all been exposed to different horses, because I totally don’t agree that they don’t suffer fools gladly.

My mare astounds me daily with her willing attitude, puppy-dog loyalty, and ability to put negative moments immediately behind her. All this in spite of my foolish and bumbling attempts at doing dressage correctly. I’m often very foolish, and she suffers me happily.

My dressage-lesson horses (that I owned) previous to her were two OTTBs, a Mustang, and a Hanoverian. None of them were as forgiving. Most of the Lipizzan people with whom I communicate in the registry functions, and in committees, and online, share similar experiences.

I’m not saying you’re experiences were wrong. Of course people who’ve found Lipizzans to be complex have their own experiences, and have drawn their own conclusions based on them. They’re valid. There are lots of Lips with storied histories and bad starts, and maybe the ones you rode were in that category.

I just don’t see an unforgiving nature as the norm, is all. The ones I’ve ridden, and know, put up with plenty and remain unfazed.

[exploding_pony]

I used to ride one owned by a friend from time-to-time. He was a lovely horse, though stiff as a board!

Horses are individuals though breeds certainly do have their general traits. The Lipps that I have seen do not have great extensions/mediums/lengthenings. So I think people tend to avoid them for the same reason that they would avoid a PRE, etc.

I think the other thing is that actually the “touring show” turns off a lot of serious dressage riders. People think of them as trick ponies.

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but I do think that the bias exists.

I’ve had all kinds of horses and for me, a great horse is a great horse. I don’t care about the breeding.

[sonestra]

I have a Lipizzan and I heard from several breeder than I talked to before I got mine that they are on the difficult side and “do not suffer fools gladly.” I did plenty of research prior to purchase. I have also found this to be true, both with my horse and the others I have ridden over many years of riding. They tend to have a very different type of personality. Obviously there are exceptions, just like with any breed. My friend’s cousin breeds Lipizzans and Andalusians and always tells amateurs to go for the Andalusians, as Lipizzans are more of a professional’s horse. I also find they tend to be a one person horse. That being said, I am sure there are some lines that are more amateur friendly and some of the breeders I spoke with really try for great temperaments. That being said, I am very happy with my horse and I did not pick one that is “easy”!

[Hulk]

The ones I have dealt with did not have bad starts and were not a matter of statistics. They were owned and trained by highly revered professionals. And yes with any breed there are bloodline differences, and preferences. I would have to say that Mystic Oak takes the best line of the thread award because " they don’t suffer fools gladly", and that sums it up rather well.

Once again that being said they are one of my favorite breeds, and I would buy one in an instant.

[Cheryl]

You know…they sound kinda like they have a mule temperment. Mules do not suffer fools and are sometimes smarter than the humans around them. If you have never seen a mule doing dressage it’s pretty neat to see it.

Cheryl

[Silverbridge]

Generally speaking, horses don’t suffer fools gladly, no matter the breed. That line is probably used most often online when speaking of Arabians, and it’s rare to see the Arab recommended as a pro’s dressage ride.

Maybe the compact size and intelligence combine to give the fool enough confidence to manage the mule-like complications? Or maybe I and many (most?) other amateur dressage riders are actually better than we think we are.

I’ll concede that the Lipizzan is not so different from many horse breeds in temperament and trainability. Start them well and treat them fairly and get good instruction, and you’ll have a dressaging good time.

I don’t agree that it’s a breed best suited to a dressage professional. Pros aren’t drawn to compactly built horses with non-flashy movement. We’re not going to see Lipizzans take over in CDIs or at National competition in the developing horse programs.

The future of the breed lies in its dressage use by amateur owners.

If we acknowledge that they’re too complicated for amateurs, and not flashy enough to appeal to pros, that makes the decline not only understandable, but acceptable.

[piedmontfields]

@Silverbridge;8406683

I’ll concede that the Lipizzan is not so different from many horse breeds in temperament and trainability. Start them well and treat them fairly and get good instruction, and you’ll have a dressaging good time.

I agree with this point, and also with the challenge that certain breeds–including many of the baroque breeds–are acquired by less skilled amateurs for their beauty and “unicorn” qualities. Even folks with some amount of horse experience seem surprised that they actually have to train and ride their magical Andalusians, etc. for example, and I have seen the same under-trained horse/over-horsed rider combo more than a few times with Lipizzans.

It would be interested if more people with interests beyond dressage (working equitation?) also became involved with Lipizzans. They are an awesome, capable, hardy breed–which I also find gorgeous and just the right size! I think their people-orientation might be earning them the Arabian-like comments about their temperament.