Lissaro & Stakkato Gold leading german ZWS - cynical report by Chris Hector

[fannie_mae]

high value of entertainment an certainly worth reading, not only for dressage horse breeders:
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/01/breeding-values-poor-value-for-the-breeder-2/

while i truly enjoy mr.hector’s cynism, mr. hector completely oversees the fact that the ZWS is published in three groups of age/accuracy for a reason:
the total breeding value (176 etc) needs to be seen in connection with the corresponding accuracy value (given in percent) of each individual stallion.

this:
http://www.pferd-aktuell.de/misc/filePush.php?id=12266&name=Zuchtwertschätzung+-+Top+50+Hengste+nach+Sicherheitsgruppen+Dressur+-+2014
if any, sense is added by reading&understanding the ZWS (breeding value estimation) in this specific break down.

that way it makes more sense as you can tell, lissaro is in a different group from donschufro and others. so is stakGold.
however, the ZWS still remains a black box and the FN rightly deserves a lot of shit for their misterious method of compilement (up until today they still don’t show deniro in their top rankings).

dr. christmann’s comments (scroll further down) make up for more food on the indvidual stallions and while i don’t agree with him one or the other candidate (i.e. vivaldi/livaldon, the latter with all his inherent and obvious deficits sure being a “con” rather than a “pro” argument to back any kind of sire&breeding…) i surely back his comments on lissaro and stakkato gold.
even though even mr. christmann only speaks from numbers as he has not been around in westfalia, where the first two crops of lissaro meanwhile develop in sport - a n y discipline of sport, that is, and that alone makes him outstanding in a league of his own.

jumpers:
stakGold surely develops to be the most promising son of stakkato with respect to breeding and current progeny on the ground. and i am not applying any misterious analysis&break downs, no matter how official these might be and who might be the provider, but i am solely leaning on my very personal impressions from recent licensings, stallion shows (both not incl in the FN ZWS and mr.hector, again, as a remote writer not being aware of it) and young horse competitions.

recent licensing seasons stakGold came up with some incredible young sons who made the german (european) breeder community look up and alert - to the very positive, that is. simply since stakGold does seem to resemble the positive features in his get, that made his prominent sire stakkato “big”, at the same time he seems to be able to exclude the negatives in breeding, features his sire stakkato himself does pass on dominantly, too.
german (hannoverian) breeders have been looking for a son of stakkato to be able to diversify “the goods from the bad” in heredity features for the longest time. SG might be the one to be able to do so and his elder progeny in sport (those who the ZWS is based on) only seem to back what non-remote breeders gain from current developments.

i.e. solid gold Z, just to name the brightest shining star from selection trials 2013, who left most incredible impressions just turning 4yr this year at every stallion show he was seen this winter (too young to be included in that ZWS and surley a candidate mr. hector should have had an eye on to make his comment less cynical).
same is true for sir obolensky Z o/o the same dam of coupie (former licensing winner in westfalia) who left an execllent impression at the westfalian licensing 2013 and was acquired by zangerseheide, too, for a good reason.

another fact mr. hector’s cynisms misses completely is lack of numbers of breeding.
one can’t blame mr. hector for it. individual numbers of breeding per stallion are not published by german breeding verbands (westfalia is the only organisation that does), as such, any record being published by officials is worth nothing as you never know how many breedings lead to the succes (or non-success) of any given stallion.

reason why specifically dressage breeding analysis need to be taken with care. it is a simple truth that black&beautiful stallions easily breed ten time as much as any other bay or chestnut stallion, and that has nothing to do with quality.
as such, ttl sums of progeny to make up for basic analysis are harder to gain for lesser shining stallions (take mr. christmann’s quote that the hannoverian compilement requires at least ten daughters to be kicked off for good).
that, however, tells you a lot about lissaro:
he obviously didn’t breed enough to come up with ten daughters in hannover, yet, he made it to the top ranking in the german ZWS.
in front of every other black&beautiful multi-time breeding stallion, that is.

while i have no dog in the race with stakGold i sure do with lissaro.
i am strongly biased to him as he was my favourite stallion ever since i saw him at the hannoverian licensing age 2 1/2 and i followed his development closely, as he was stationed right in front of my doorstep at rüscher konermann station in his first two breeding years.
i have seen his first crop at the first foals inspection at rüscher konermann and i do know what kind of mares he was bred to. given that mare base (suboptimal and not suitable for him at all) the stallion deserves even higher recognition for his breeding achievements so far. in this case, mr. hector’s cynism is surely misplaced.
neither dr.christmann nor mr. hector have been at lissaro’s first foals inspection. as such, they can only speak of numbers. remote reports of little to no information value to explain the stallion’s current breeding value.

to be fair, my pink barn glasses still sit heavily on my nose speaking of lissaro. yes, i am barn blind when it comes to this stallion.
at the same time, i am probably the only person in the world who came up with a very detailed breed analysis and feature on lissaro at a time, noone else did. the hanoverian society ignored him completely, mr.hector wasn’t even aware of him at that time.
http://www.hippologi.com/Lissaroengl.htm
this feature was written in 2010 when lissaro was three years old.

lissaro’s current breeding status as german “no.one” proves my early analysis right - and yes, i am flattered. he was one out of many hundred stallions being licensed each year overhere and looking back, i consider my early analysis a very approriate prediction - to the good a n d the bad. reasonable assesments given at that time, that is, and not numbers speaking.
remote writing is a different league and not mine.
and i am happy to take the shit should his progeny not prove accordingly in higher sports (GP, that is).

time will tell.

i have bred my tb mare to lissaro twice and i knew why i chose a tb mare for him. i desperately tried for a third time, hoping for a filly, but the unprofessional handling at edward gal’s barn didn’t produce acceptable semen, neither did they manage any relyable breeder-stallion station relationship at all (quote mr.hector; " With great fanfare he was sent to Edward Gal to pursue his international dressage career, it hasn’t happened, …")
the fanfare-station wouldn’t even answer the phone in time or confirm any timely semen orders, reason the relationship was ended by the rüscher family, a relyable and very down to earth station who has been in this business for generations.

great fanfares, mr. hector, can blow backwards, too.
and that has nothing to do with the stallion or his inherent qualities.
numbers simply don’t say everything.

lissaro might not compete internationally, but he doesn’t need to,either. the ZWS might be full of questionable compilement, but basic understanding should be given when criticising:
this is supposed to be a b r e e d valuation, not a personal performance record.
and while it certainly helps to see a breeding stallion compete internationally, it says nothing about his heridity.
i am sure, even mr. hector will share this point of view.

“I know which lists I would be going to if I wanted to find a stallion for the coming season…”
good luck, mr. hector, since half the stallions of your prefered list are dead or retired from breeding.
the simple difference a breakdown by age makes, when only recognized as such for analysis.

nevertheless, enjoy the article as it is of high entertainement value and surely suits a purpose. it made me smile big time and i love it

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=fannie mae;8028235]
high value of entertainment an certainly worth reading, not only for dressage horse breeders:
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/01/breeding-values-poor-value-for-the-breeder-2/

while i truly enjoy mr.hector’s cynism, mr. hector completely oversees the fact that the ZWS is published in three groups of age/accuracy for a reason:
the total breeding value (176 etc) needs to be seen in connection with the corresponding accuracy value (given in percent) of each individual stallion.
…
nevertheless, enjoy the article as it is of high entertainement value and surely suits a purpose. it made me smile big time and i love it :-)[/QUOTE]

In preparation for a presentation I’m giving later this spring, I was doing some research on the various breeding values, how they are determined, and discussions of their use by the everyday sport horse breeder.

In my research, I found that Mr. Hector has been “cynical” of the FN values (and to some extent, Dr. Christmann’s breeding values as well) for many, many years. In fact, he appears to recycle virtually the same article every couple of years, updated with the names of the stallions du jour. I find it hard to believe that a man of his stature and contacts in the breeding world doesn’t recognize the value of the various indices for what they are, and can only conclude that he periodically publishes this article for the sake of attracting eyeballs.

[Edgewood]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8028383]
In preparation for a presentation I’m giving later this spring, I was doing some research on the various breeding values, how they are determined, and discussions of their use by the everyday sport horse breeder.

In my research, I found that Mr. Hector has been “cynical” of the FN values (and to some extent, Dr. Christmann’s breeding values as well) for many, many years. In fact, he appears to recycle virtually the same article every couple of years, updated with the names of the stallions du jour. I find it hard to believe that a man of his stature and contacts in the breeding world doesn’t recognize the value of the various indices for what they are, and can only conclude that he periodically publishes this article for the sake of attracting eyeballs.[/QUOTE]

I agree Rick – I have seen his other articles on the same topic, but with just different stallion names.

Fannie Mae, I remember your post about Lissaro when he was 3 and he came on my radar too. I have loved him ever since, especially his clearly excellent dual talents and very good brain. I was happy to see how well he did this year, given I am sure he has not bred nearly as many as the black stallions. He’s bay and “has too much white” and “isn’t modern”.

Is it your opinion that he needs a fully blooded mare with TB up close, or could he cross with a modern longer legged WB mare who doesn’t have a lot of blood up close but is modern in type and movement? What is your impression of what Lissaro improves best and least?

[fannie_mae]

[QUOTE=Edgewood;8028794]
…or could he cross with a modern longer legged WB mare who doesn’t have a lot of blood up close but is modern in type and movement? [/QUOTE]

THIS!

if you look a his current prominent kids you will find his stamp in colour and they do seem to run in all shapes.

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2015/02/18/lilliano-sold-sissy-max-theurer
lilliano is o/o a dam by sirdonnerhall who i went to see a couple of years ago. this mare (lillianos’s dam) is a very typical sirD daughter, just the way sirD stamps his get - highest recognition value of sirD himself.
lilliano resembles a lot of sirD in exterieur and gaites, except for his walk:
that sure is a big bonus added by lissaro.
large size format

if you look at lissaro’s best performing daughter so far, this is “let it be” descending from an excellent damline of incredible sportperformance, yet a very old fashioned damline. this is the same damline that inspired me years ago to come up with my article on "longleggishness ":

http://www.hippologi.com/langbeinigengl.htm

deprice, featured in the above article, is by damon hill x florestan. her mother is a direct sister to let it be (both o/o flair river by frühlingsball).

http://hengste.equitaris.de/uploads/pics/Let_it_be_11_Silke_Ottenjann_Sieg_Muenster_14_INT.jpg

let it be comes along in lissaro’s colour but apart from that is a dupe of her mother and a typical progeny of this damline:
strong bone structure, heavy, old fashioned, gaites&jump.
large size format

lassaro, lissaro’s first licensed son o/o dam by monsieur AA:
dark brown, plain and the only kid so far i would lable athletic, modern, pep!
no obvious similarities with the sire at all, except for face/eyes maybe…
closed up from behind (opposite of hindlegs out), super reactivity in hindlegs/quick repetetion, rather compact in shape, complete horse incl jump.
handy midsize format

his second licensed son (dark brown, plain) was licesend because he was the most expensive horse at the elite auction and a nice riding horse all in all. came with a very slow hindleg, though. type came a lot after his damsire, except for length:
he sure had that additional rip…
upper midsize format

regardless to colour (50+ chance you recieve a “clon” of lissaro) this is what he seems to pass on dominantly:

1. walk. i have not come across or heard of a single kid that lacks walk (even if they descend from risky damsires like sirD and others)
2. interieur, ridability, strong nerves.
3. dual talent, no jump-killer even in non-jump crosses
4. lissaro can add “a rip” in length (haven’t seen square horses yet)
5. no foal maker
6. no star kicker (if you want to add “longer legs” and spectacular front leg activity, stay away form lissaro)
7. no refiner
8. canter - positive (can improve, but at least doesn’t seem to destroy)
9. trott:
   rhythm (takt) +
   fast/repetition -
   closed up from behind (opposite of hindleg out) +/-

@Edgewood;8028794

…Is it your opinion that he needs a fully blooded mare with TB up close…

i can only speak of the two foals i bred o/o my tb mare.
the elder turns 5 now and just started his carreer under british eventing registration with two clear rounds and a convincing win in his first eventer/sj class in england.
what really blew me away, though, were his basic gaites. crossing tb is never an option to improve basic gaites and he used to be very normal at foal age.
obviously, he totally transforms under saddle:
rhythm (takt) and move clearly are of upper league quality.
there are videos of him age 4 on my facebook account to give you an idea:

show jump
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152434449182267&pnref=story

scroll further down for trott and canter below.
mid size format 1,65

if the younger brother will also convince under saddle that way, i don’t know. he had an accident age 2 and it took some time he finally reocvered for good. thus, he was mounted late last year and is supposedly being sent to a professional dressage barn in spring “to take advantage of his very good baisc gaites and ridability”.

that, however, i can’t comment on because i haven’t seen him ever since.

[Edgewood]

Thank you fannie mae! That was very helpful being that you have seen a lot of them up close. I have 4 WB mares, none with a ton of blood, 2 pretty modern, 1 modern but not as much, and one older fashioned (but with super qualities). So that is very helpful to see he can cross with a modern type/moving WB mare without a ton of blood up close. I thought maybe because of the SirD crosses popping up to Lissaro.

I remember your video of your TB-Lissaro – very lovely!

And I still remember the news article (eurodressage) at the WBFSH Championships when it was very windy and tent fell down and a large table umbrella took flight by Lissaro and he didn’t bat an eye based on what the reporter said. Those strong nerves are good as long as you keep the nice gaits and forward attitude.

I appreciate you taking the time to post such a helpful explanation of what you have seen!

[DownYonder]

Great info, Fannie Mae. Thanks!

And I hadn’t heard the term “star kicker” before. So it is used to describe a horse that is very fancy with the front legs?

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8028383]
In preparation for a presentation I’m giving later this spring, I was doing some research on the various breeding values, how they are determined, and discussions of their use by the everyday sport horse breeder.

In my research, I found that Mr. Hector has been “cynical” of the FN values (and to some extent, Dr. Christmann’s breeding values as well) for many, many years. In fact, he appears to recycle virtually the same article every couple of years, updated with the names of the stallions du jour. I find it hard to believe that a man of his stature and contacts in the breeding world doesn’t recognize the value of the various indices for what they are, and can only conclude that he periodically publishes this article for the sake of attracting eyeballs.[/QUOTE]

Yes, there was a thread on here a while back discussing some of his recent comments. I will have to see if I can find it.

[halt]

can someone point me in the direction of lassaro’s stallion page? does he have one?

[clint]

Here is one: http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/LissarovdHelle.shtml

[halt]

[QUOTE=clint;8029749]
Here is one: http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/LissarovdHelle.shtml[/QUOTE]

thanks - i’m looking for his son lassaro though.

[Edgewood]

[QUOTE=halt;8029751]
thanks - i’m looking for his son lassaro though.[/QUOTE]
http://www.ruescher-konermann.de/index.php/deckhengste

Although he’s not on that page, the youtube video below says that he was there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jCaG5APpVA

Might email them?

[fannie_mae]

he was sold at one of the last elite auctions.

[Donella]

Lissaro interests me from a breeding perspective for a number of obvious reasons but I have to say I am very disappointed in how he looks now with his Celle rider. Something has been lost and while I doubt it will happen I would love to see him under a different rider. It’s quite underwhelming.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Donella;8030993]
Lissaro interests me from a breeding perspective for a number of obvious reasons but I have to say I am very disappointed in how he looks now with his Celle rider. Something has been lost and while I doubt it will happen I would love to see him under a different rider. It’s quite underwhelming.[/QUOTE]

And this is why I like to see a stallion move at liberty to judge their gaits. And bad riding won’t effect the stallion’s ability to produce.

A friend of mine just came back from Germany & saw Lissaro in person…LOVED him. But said he is a BIG boy…nothing really modern about him.

But now she has me considering him for a very modern, lighter mare that I have.

Does anyone know if his frozen is any good?

[clint]

Superior Equine Sires reports pregnancies from his frozen semen.

[Sunnydays]

There is a Lissaro foal being born in Canada, from a very good producing Wolkentanz mare, this May I believe. Breeder is Linda Brand. I can’t wait to see.
FRozen semen; caught on one dose. Last year Linda also bred a mare with 1 dose of Lissaro frozen, but the mare lost it early in the pregnancy. Semen seems good.
This foal will likely be for sale …

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8031529]
And this is why I like to see a stallion move at liberty to judge their gaits. And bad riding won’t effect the stallion’s ability to produce.

A friend of mine just came back from Germany & saw Lissaro in person…LOVED him. But said he is a BIG boy…nothing really modern about him.

But now she has me considering him for a very modern, lighter mare that I have.

Does anyone know if his frozen is any good?[/QUOTE]

I was looking to see if I had any pictures that I took of him but can’t find them. I really LOVE him and had my broodmare not be Matcho-Garibaldi I would have used him. True, he is not the most modern looking stallion. He is not tall and a bit heavier in type. However, just trotting in hand you can see how well he uses his body. It is as if his bones are connected with rubber bands, no tension.

[Donella]

Of course I understand it doesn’t effect his ability as a sire…it’s just too bad when the training takes away from a horse’s qualities. Especially such a clearly talented horse.

I have seen him a number of times too. He has great bone and feet and a friendly character. He does not have stallion presence in my opinion though he is a nice looking, cute horse. Almost “cob like” in his appearance. I would say for sure needs a mare with strong type…I would imagine a W II mare would be perfect. Have thought about him for my super pretty and modern Londonderry mare to make a nice sport horse.

Does anyone know how old are his oldest offspring?

[Blume_Farm]

I knew I had a picture of him! There is one on my farm FB page. He is just in his stall hanging out, but I think you can get a feel for his size:

https://www.facebook.com/BlumeFarm/photos/pb.164789740325939.-2207520000.1425156663./484433395028237/?type=3&theater

[alexandra]

[QUOTE=Donella;8030993]
Lissaro interests me from a breeding perspective for a number of obvious reasons but I have to say I am very disappointed in how he looks now with his Celle rider. Something has been lost and while I doubt it will happen I would love to see him under a different rider. It’s quite underwhelming.[/QUOTE]
The same way as Sabine put some more info to be able to understand, I will try to add something:
Well - Lissaro came from Edward Gal to Celle. I do not recall whether he was considered not good enough by eg or the owners were unhappy about the breeding situation.
In any case I have heard at that time quite a few reports on .lissaro from his first time there. I will check if I can find the comments from than, but I clearly remember that people were discussed by the way the stallion did react under saddle. So I really bow in front of this rider to be able to “repair” this stallion to be able to compete at fourth level and higher again. One has to have in mind, that the job of the riders at Celle is not to train horses to GP and it is very unfair to expect this of one of them.
And I think it is nice that they stick to this rider now that “repaired” this horse !
Plus as fanniemae writes he does not need to compete internationally. All is there and can be seen in him from young age and his offspring !

I am looking forward to a foal by him in May out of my Don Frederico - Prince Thatch mare that is dually talented aswell. Did dressage, 3 day and jumping classes herself.i took into the equation the risk of having something shirt legged - mare us the same. And I actually choose him to get a rectangular horse. We need those as it is a big issue to get a good saddle for a short horse with big shoulder !