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Live Breeding - expectation from stallion owner

Sport Horse Breeding
#1

For anyone with experience with live breeding, I’d appreciate your opinion on my situation.

I live in France and breed Lusitano horses and live breeding (in hand or in the field) is still sometimes offered. Two years ago I brought my first mare for field breeding and it was super easy. Dropped her off, picked her up 10 days later and she was pregnant.

This year I have a 19 yo mare to breed. She had already had 4 foals and I wanted one more. Stallion is an 8 hour drive away. Brought her on her second day of heat. Left her for three days and stallion owner said she’s not in heat. So drove back to get her and when she got home she was in raging heat. Took her for an ultrasound and vet said she’d probably ovulate the next day.
So, one cycle wasted. The mare doesn’t demonstrate a lot so Apparently the stallion owner didn’t tease her enough.

Second cycle we dropped her off again on her second day of heat. Went back to get her yesterday after she had been there for a week. Stallion owner told me she was covered on day 3 and day 4. But because she kicked after the day 4 breeding she didn’t try again.

Maybe there’s a chance she’s pregnant, but I’m really not pleased with this situation. The point of doing live cover is to have the best chance of being pregnant. Normally it should work on the first cycle. In the field they would naturally breed multiple times a day through the heat. In hand they are normally presented once a day for the entire heat.
I realise my mare is apparently not as demonstrative as other mares, but isn’t that the stallion owner’s job to figure that out and spend as much time as necessary with teasing to make it work ?

I’ve already paid the breeding fee. As well as board for two cycles, vet fees, and gas for driving across the country six times. But I don’t feel like the stallion owner held up her part of the deal. It seems too easy for her to say “not my problem” and walk away with the breeding fee in hand after only trying twice and not even on the days with the best chance.

Any thoughts from stallion owners or mare owners? Is this just how it goes or do I have a case to make that she hasn’t held up her part of the deal ?

#2

What does your contract say?
Was the stallion owner informed that this mare takes extra teasing?

1 Like
#3

The mare is new to me so I didn’t know anything about her. But she would have known the second heat obviously since she had already had her for the first heat.

Unfortunately the contract doesn’t stipulate the amount of times the mare is meant to be presented. I should have questioned that before signing, since I have seen other in-hand breeding contracts that state they present the mare once per day.

#4

I guess my first two thoughts are (1) Not all stallions like all mares even those in raging heats so if that is who they use to tease with it may make this situation more difficult. If they use another horse as a teaser, well, same thing applies. I worked where we had a resident teaser, we bred him maybe once or twice a year but for the most part there were 9 stallions with full breeding books and our teaser. Occasionally we’d have to pull a breeding stallion out if we suspected there was an issue with this. I remember one of our stallions simply did not like grey mares. (2) There was definitely more than a few stallions where we tried to breed them only every other day and often palpated the mares on site to determine where they were in their cycle in order to ‘spare’ the stallion(s). This often applied to older stallions and/or those with not the best quality of semen.

2 Likes
#5

I am a bit suspicious that there is something up with the stallion. He hasn’t had many foals and none for the past few years despite having a high stallion score and being a desirable colour (chestnut, which is rare for lusitanos). When I asked the woman why this was she said she has been busy and not focusing on breeding. But maybe he’s just not a good breeder ?

#6

I don’t have any relevant experience, unfortunately, just wanted to say that I hope your mare is in foal and I’m crossing my fingers for you!

#7

It’s hard to say… I’d have to KNOW the stallion owner/handler to have a valid opinion on what has gone on for you and your mare. I’ve done nothing BUT live cover, breeding TBs for a few decades, with myself as the stallion owner/handler, and as the mare owner taking mares to a stallion.
Some people who have stallions are just as crazy and weird as other horse owners. Others are professionals. There are people who you should not trust, and should probably NOT send your mare to. Others are stellar horsemen. I think that you do need to check that out before sending your mare to someone that you don’t know… which can be difficult to do if it’s a long ways away from where you live.
Hopefully, your mare is now in foal, if she got covered adequately at a reasonable time in her heat. Some mares are not as easy to get the deed done as others are. Some stallions simply don’t LIKE certain mares. Some mares are shy or timid, especially maiden mares.
Good luck!!!

2 Likes
#8

I’m a little confused about why you are upset about this cycle. Your mare was bred twice, correct? It should really only take one well-timed cover to get a mare in foal. I can hardly fault the stallion owner for stopping when the mare was kicking at the stallion.

9 Likes
#9

This.

I’m not going to risk my stallion (or myself) by trying to breed him over and over again (or at all) to a kicking mare. I’ve also seen some stallions just not be interested once the mare starts getting kicky and defiant about it.

They don’t need to be bred multiple times a day to conceive. That’s also a bit unrealistic if the stallion is also being bred to other mares or doing another job.

I don’t know how you could have a case to make that she hasn’t held up her end of the deal. Unless you have some sort of contract and you can clearly prove that she violated/broke it. Your mare not conceiving (if that were to be the case) is not necessarily proof of the stallion owner somehow being at fault.

Perhaps this breeding situation is not for you. It sounds like you’d me more comfortable with a more local field breeding situation or maybe even AI where you have complete oversight.

There are a lot of variables with sending a mare for live cover, whether it’s teasing, stallion and mare compatability, and just general horse/breeding behaviors.

2 Likes
#10

My problem is that it wasn’t well-timed, though. She was bred on day 4 but the stallion owner guesses she ovulated on day 6.

1 Like
#11

If neither you nor the stallion owner is doing an ultrasound - how does anybody know when the mare ovulated? Or even guess? I suppose you can infer it from her behavior but even that is not always accurate. And as far as breeding multiple times a day - sometimes that can interfere with conception.

7 Likes
#12

If both the mare and stallion are fertile, one cover 48 hours prior to ovulation should be sufficient. That’s assuming you know when she ovulated, but, since you weren’t ultrasounding, that’s really a guess.

6 Likes
#13

OP, to make you feel better about your odds:

Last year, I bred a 22 year old mare to my trainer’s 22 year old stallion on a wing and a prayer. No ultrasounds or teasing involved. I gave the mare a shot of Lutalyse, waited six days, gave her a dose of Sucromate, and hauled her over to the stallion the next morning. We covered her, and I brought her straight home immediate afterwards. Two weeks later, she checked in foal, and she’s currently driving me crazy by holding the (very active, per Friday’s ultrasound) foal hostage at 352 days and counting…

Be optimistic! You actually have pretty good odds of a pregnancy, if the stallion owner is right about when the mare ovulated.

10 Likes
#14

I bred my mare live cover. Both times I drove down with the mare in estrus, the stallion was lead out and hand bred to the mare, and I drove home with the mare afterwards.

The only thing that went somewhat wrong was that during the second breeding the stallion owner yelled at the stallion on approach to my mare which scared my mare. My mare does not like yelling men.

You only need to cover the mare one time. Even covering the mare twice per cycle should be sufficient. There’s some concern that multiple coverings can cause more issues with fluid retention, as the mare’s body has to clean up any excess fluids after breeding.

If you use ultrasounds and check where the mare is in her cycle, one breeding is sufficient.

2 Likes
#15

For two years in a row, my mare has held onto the follicle for 5 days post breeding. She got in foal on one cover both times.

If your mare checks open, I’d start ultrasounding her and breed when you know she’s ready, rather than just guessing.

#16

You seem to have some misconceptions about breeding. Stallions in the wild don’t cover mares “multiple times a day”. And when doing live cover, no more frequently than every other day is the norm. Indeed, many American thoroughbred sheds only give you one breeding slot per mare per cycle until much later in the season, as denoted by “no doubles until June 15”.

4 Likes
#17

Do you breed TBs? I’ve never seen a shed restrict doubles until 6/15. They may bump a double at fairly short notice, but never outright refused (especially at such a late date!).

#18

May 1, not June 15, but my initial phraseology was only an example. Such a restriction on foal heats and doubles isn’t unusual.

#19

I don’t live in America or breed TBs. The norm in France, as I’ve read it on other contracts, is once per day throughout the heat.
My other mare was bred in the field and they did indeed breed multiple times per day throughout the heat. .

#20

I have a TB stallion who breeds live cover and AI. I live cover my own mares (TBs) and a few outside mares per year. My mares are teased every other day, or every day when very close. I do not breed every day through a heat cycle. If I am confident in the mare & cycle, I wait until day 4 and then breed every other day until she is out, or until ovulation is confirmed through ultrasound.

It is NOT beneficial to put semen in the mare every day for 5-7 days. That’s just more fluid and debris she has to clear, and more opportunity for an immune response (inflammation). Especially with older mares, or mares that have clearance issues, it is generally preferred to time the breeding with an ovulatory agent and breed only once. This is standard procedure in the TB industry with good conception rates.

If a mare is confirmed with a breedable follicle, but has difficulty standing, I may sedate the mare, twitch or lip chain, and/or hold up a front leg to get her covered. However if she’s STILL kicking, I’m not breeding her. If I’ve bred a mare once in the cycle and it was easy, then two days later she’s difficult, I’m going to listen to her and not try. My stallion has been kicked once before in the groin and it knocked him out the rest of the breeding season. One mare is not worth the risk to him; and he’s a smart, clever stallion who approaches cautiously and will take one in the chest if he can’t avoid it.

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