Thanks for the reply. I’m certainly sorry to hear that any of these practices are still commonplace and accepted in current times. I wouldn’t call the practices unprofessional, I would call them abusive. To your knowledge is the clinician here engaged in that activity or has been in the past? If so, certainly that context would matter with respect to her comments.
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I cannot speak with regards to KP, but any trainer that would say “flip a horse” hyperbole or not is a big no in my book. Read the letter that was posted upthread that she wrote regarding GM. That says everything I need to know about her character as a person.
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While I think most of the quoted comments KP said were coarse and ugly, they weren’t nearly as offensive as her “open letter” supporting George Morris! This type of blind support for someone because she never saw/suspected him of any sexual abuse or wrong-doing is sheer ignorance. Statements like hers is what gives prominent predators (clergy, celebrities, Drs., etc.) license to do what they do!
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The way I think it was done to my horse, because I saw them beat and twirl him and pull a bit through his mouth, (they flipped him in the few days before I could get my horse trailer and get back to pick him up) is they did the beating and twirling but added both draw reins and a running martingale. I found both attached to his bridle when I picked him up. And yes he fell over and stepped on the trainer getting up. Flipping horses is the most dangerous, cruelest and stupidist thing to do ever. They admitted to flipping him but of course blamed it on him and suggested drugging him.
My guy came home covered in scrapes, spasming all over his topline and with a muscular asseymetry caused by apparently riding only one direction (don’t understand the logic to this). He needed 3 months off with robaxin and body work, slow and gentle come back to work, monthly chiropractic, etc., and starting him all over again. I have never felt unsafe on this horse, never had to use any gadgets.
These are people who show hunter/jumper on the local and A circuit regionally, and mentored with a very famous trainer.
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Got it - understand your position here and appreciate the clarification. I don’t think there’s enough time, interest or energy on my end to get up to speed on the George Morris incident but obviously understand the push back there. Was just curious about the prevalence of the practice in h/j land since its not common in my experience at any level in dressage or eventing.
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I don’t think it’s common.
Even though I didn’t think K was serious about it, I found it weird, because I’ve only seen/heard of it used in a horse that rears, which is from a refusal to go forward, vs. a horse that the rider couldn’t halt.
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witequestrian on Instagram made some great points- check it out. She also makes some funny memes!
My horse was one of those that was run into walls, standards, and polled along with other questionable training methods. This was at a BNT’s barn (before I owned him). It’s taken years to deal with his anxieties and you still need to reassure him that he’s not going to be killed periodically.
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Me too - genuinely pretty shocked/surprised that people immediately jumped to this conclusion as even with exceptionally nasty, rank horses known to go over, I’ve never seen it done and certainly not with a horse that won’t halt. Not only ineffective I’d assume but could create an incredibly dangerous mount in future.
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Wow. I am so sorry to hear this.
I have a hot mare who I do sometimes use a wall or fence to back her off. It’s done with tact. I’ve had trainers tell me to “use the wall/fence” but not sure if they’ve said to run into it? Either way, I’ve never had someone said they’d flip my horse over if they were me or even allude to that.
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I probably will regret posting this but I have seen a horse flipped. Horse reared. Trainer in one swift motion pulled his head to her right thigh and stepped to the ground in a normal albeit quick dismount. Horse landed on the opposite hip. He got up. She didn’t make a big deal out of it, walked him around the pen, made sure he was not lame, then got back on and continued the lesson for a short period to end on a positive and then put him up. There was really little force and really no anger involved in the whole episode. I suspect there are only a handful of people who can do this and quite a few others who revel in the I will do this to dominate him philosophy. I did not see this particular horse ever rear again but it is possible that he did especially if he went to another barn.
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She says
Now I have this thing with my stick and I call it ‘smack n’ back’, ‘smack n’ back,’ when a horse does a disobedience, the reason we have the stick is to use it correctly. Our horses need it. They need it. All this, all this, you know, animal rights activists, who know nothing about training horses… They need a good licking sometimes.
Then, in regards to the flipping, she says
Don’t you dare turn that corner. You crash him into that fence rather than letting him turn. I personally would be flipping him over backwards. He wouldn’t dare go 'round that corner with me. You’re a little weak, here (points to her head), you’re weak here.
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Responding to myself here but in the time since this video went viral, I’ve done more reading about and research into Prudent and am firmly in the camp of “how on earth did USEF let this woman host a clinic?”
Not because of her comments within this video (which I personally find in poor taste at best, and not befitting a coach of her level), but because of her comments in regards to GM/SafeSport and the language she used in her 2017 interview with COTH.
Frankly, her comments in this most recent video seem par for the course for her, and candidly, only further make me think that this is a poor horsewoman who, if this is how she merely speaks about her relationship with horses, in action strong arms them into doing what she wishes, regardless of the cost. Of course, there’s also how little she thinks of the adult amateurs who currently make up the back bone of this industry.
Perhaps if the only shows I was attending were rated ones, I might think that the failure of the industry is a question of “how far can the amateur go by buying the greatest horse in the world”, that the sport has been “dummied down” to accommodate “fearful, talentless amateurs” and that “it’s amazing that anyone can ride at all.” Maybe then I would think that the “sport makes me sick.”
But as a self-funded horsewoman, I mostly attend schooling shows. And there, I see ammys like me – on green horses they bought themselves, that they’re making themselves, who find value in the “subterranean” levels of the sport that allows us to give our horses confidence. And y’know what? I still love to fox hunt, ride bareback, and spend all damn day with my horse.
If Prudent’s view of the sport is so dismal I’d advise her to either step out of the bubbles of the Wellingtons, Ocalas, and Lexingtons of the world and attend a schooling show with those of us who can’t afford her level of snobbery or simply retire, since she clearly thinks we aren’t worth her time.
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Yes - I think safety concerns and chronic, nasty rearing aside, the part I was questioning was the prevalence of flipping as a standard practice for a horse that won’t stop or is being mildly disobedient. Not what you’re describing. I’ve had a horse go up on me and have also seen emergency one rein/head to hip maneuvers too. Glad no one was hurt in your example.
We have all lost our minds. I just watched the entirety of the first group and she is rough around the edges but each of the participants should have been ready for that. She even goes so far as to say to the parents watching she is tough on them because this is a dangerous sport and they need to be in control. That’s basically verbatim. If they want to go all the way and represent team USA they need to get it done. I interpreted the fence comment to mean use the fence to your advantage. In no way did I believe her that she wanted the girl to flip the horse over. What I find a little baffling is that Luke’s horse pulled a shoe and they kept going. Did that bump anyone else?
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I do not condone abuse or believe one should dominate a horse or any animal but something has changed. Me and many of my colleagues no longer are equine vets because of the number of intractable dangerous animals that we were faced with. And it is now going the same way with dogs. Today I saw one outgoing friendly dog for every 3 who were untrained and unsocialized. Everyone has been blaming COVID but I am not sure that is the entire picture.
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But she is from the GM school of horsemanship where you pole horses in the legs and intentionally break a students arm or leg. All done by GM. So to me, not so unbelievable. Plus, I’ve known people who have actually done this.
As for exclamations of frustration, I could see yelling to someone “I’m going to kill you” in a moment of anger but that doesn’t hold water to someone telling their child/youth/junior aspiring rider that they need to flip their horse over backwards.
I’ve had a horse flip over backwards. I was halted on a horse. A dog ran up and attacked a goat who was walking in front of us. Dog went to kill goat, grabbed it by the throat and the goat screamed and the horses startled up and over backwards.
I was very lucky that day to escape with only an injured finger.
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Right. I think it was a poor choice of words but hyperbole to say that she would not let him do it.
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When Luke’s horse pulled a shoe, she stopped and asked more than once if it would be alright to keep going, or was the horse a sore sort who would need to stop until the shoe could be tacked back on.
I didn’t catch the fence bit when I watched it last night (so I was interested to see your reaction, too); I’m planning on watching it again anyway.
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You bet your bottom that if a PETA member saw that clinic video, they would use it to demonstrate how people abuse horses when they ride them. And the fact that she is famous, was a team member, Olympian etc immediately damages our sport even more.
You want to preserve riding and horse shows? Then don’t protect the abusers. If we don’t call them out, the general public will call us ALL out.
Imagine a member of the public watching a video of a grown ass woman telling a kid to abuse a horse to force it to do stuff.
Yeah… what a look.
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