Live Stream of Wellington Young Rider Clinic January 4-7

[Alterration]

There are some horses who are inherently willing. But it’s definitely not all of them.

I’ve trained a number of horses. Green and unspoilt horses are easy. Fixing other people’s mistakes is not.

One of them that I have right now doesn’t move under saddle. Literally rooted to the ground. Will not walk forward. Thankfully doesn’t rear, just totally stuck.

It’s not because he was smacked. I watched her try to “train” him. She was really nice. She thought that maybe cookies or wiggling him off balance or trying to spin him in a circle would work. Hot tip. It didn’t. I watched him actively try to take off her head one day - open mouth, coming at her from behind.

He is the type that responds to most things with a “try me” attitude. He touched the hot wire multiple times with his nose, trying to figure out if it was hot all over or just in this one area. He is not a willing horse by nature.

He now goes forward from a cluck on the ground and when the weather relents we’ll transfer that to the saddle. He is not an amateur friendly horse, and quite frankly he was going to be put down before I stepped in and said I’d give him a shot.

I’m usually a last stop before the kill pen, because I have become known as someone who works with the weird ones.

And 99% of them come from spoiling, not from hitting.

Keep in mind, I’m not saying to go around smacking your horses good lord, no. But you have a fraction of a second for real discipline and if you are too afraid to use it when you need it, it’s a problem.

[Knights_Mom]

@dags

We’re doomed.

There’s no way we can pass the “Central Park” test. Because the public watches a young or green or frisky or rank horse grab the bit and go bucking/spinning/rearing across the arena and their first thought is to film it for submission to Fluffy’s Funniest Farm Animals, Edition 792, and we’re just gonna have to sit there in terror and pray we’re still in the saddle when it all ends.

You know what kind of horse passes the Central Park test? The robot horse. And the practices that lead to robot horses are far more in line with what I consider abuse.

As a whole, are our show horses horses dull-eyed? Fearful of people? Suspicious of quick movements? Lacking spark? Unwilling to work? Shut down?

No. They nicker when you walk in the barn. Nuzzle you for scritches. Cuddle in stalls. Perk up when you approach. Look to us for guidance. Follow us around the arena while we set the obstacles we’ll then ask them to jump. Saunter happily next to their buddies while we gab endlessly on their backs. Humor us when we put them in costumes. Make funny faces because they know it cracks us up.

Katie, the 70-year-old from another era who probably doesn’t even use the Internet and thinks viral is a term you learn in Med school, was wrong to say what she did (in regards to the horses). No ifs, ands or buts about it. USEF should be providing these clinicians, especially older ones, with some sort of guidance before letting them loose on a live-streamed international platform.

But to just throw up our hands, without any attempt to spread some education? Speaking of a much larger picture than just the KMP incident, and applying the Central Park theory to the whole of horse training… you just can’t, because the public has never sat on top of 1200lbs of muscle that has decided it’s in charge. They went on a trail ride once when they were 7 on a 30 y.o. draft cross that hasn’t trotted in 10 years. This will be the end of crops, spurs and bits, and probably pointing horses at sticks.

And then what? What do we do with all these horses? Where do they go & who foots the bill for them? Without jobs horses don’t exist. We welcome the better standards of care & more humane training practices. Add in a historical perspective, and horses are better off than they’ve ever, ever been since they were first saddled. And we did that. Us. The stewards of the horse. The ones who actually spoke to them while John Q Public just beat them all the way to the tavern.

And the current crop of non-perfect equines? The ones with holes? Dangerous tricks? Bad manners? Half the time because of wishy-washy training that never established proper boundaries? We either fix it so they can be safely handled by non-professionals or it’s off to the knackers. And sometimes fixing it is not pretty, because it’s a 1200lb herd animal with a flight trigger and a one-track mind. But “not pretty” (especially as viewed by the public) ≠ abuse.

Horses that do not have jobs are not safe. We need to lean into that while simultaneously pledging to be the world’s stewards to these magnificent creatures, preserving their history & vital importance to mankind’s own steady march towards progress, and promise that we will train them humanely & ethically.

And there was absolutely nothing inhumane in that clinic.

Maybe that horse who refuses is having a bad day, a bad rider, is hurting, or is overfenced and needs to go a level or find another job. The horse doesn’t have to life-or-death jump a ditch to escape invading Roman Legions. It’s a clinic.

Maybe beating the crap out of it, or flipping it over backwards isn’t the best approach TO BEGIN WITH and the fact no one is saying this doesn’t speak well to horsemen being able to police horsemen.

[Alterration]

I don’t think the two are equivalent at all, excepting the public outcry bit.

Let me ask you - what do you think the endgame is? If you follow this to its logical conclusion, where does it end?

I know what I’ve seen over the last 35 years, and I think we are in dangerous territory.

[Knights_Mom]

@trakehners

@Alterration

Literally every time I have dealt with a ruined horse, it’s been ruined by wishy-washy permissive training. Or inconsistent abuse - e.g, the rider let it get away with something 1400 times, and time 1401 they decided to discipline the horse, making them very confused about what the rules really were.

I have mixed feelings about this (not saying that I disagree). When I say that, I mean that I find that a lot of horses are ruined by repeated overreaction from riders who aren’t prepared to handle situations in more nuanced ways.

I can count on one hand the number of times that I’ve had to physically discipline my horse in the five years I’ve owned him. The most recent was back in the summer when he bit me hard enough to rip a belt loop off my breeches (he’d been on stall rest for multiple weeks, it’s not like him normally). I smacked him, he was shocked because that almost never happens, I settled him, and then we got on with our day. As a general rule, because I don’t physically discipline him often (because there’s rarely a need to), it’s a lot more impactful when I do.

He learned as a 3yo that he has to contain himself while being handled by people because he tried to turn into a kite during a hand walk after a few days on stall rest due to an infected cut, and I just turned around and marched him right back to his stall. I only had to do it twice before he figured out that good behavior = continued freedom and nonsense = the box for the rest of the day. I don’t punish him for being a bit of a goofball and having a play, but he knows he’s not allowed to be explosive where humans are involved. Out in the field, sure. In hand or under saddle, absolutely not (and you can hear it in his breathing. My trainer laughs at how hard he tries to keep it under wraps and he gets alllll the cookies for it afterward).

I just don’t put him in situations where I’m actively inviting a need to discipline him in an aggressive physical manner (since one could argue that putting him away for acting out is a physical form of discipline). That doesn’t mean that I don’t show him new things or push him out of his comfort zone, but we try very hard to be calm about it. If he doesn’t understand something, 99% of the time we’re in a situation where I can let him investigate and parse through it, and because of that 99% of the time, all I typically need to do the other 1% (say, in the show ring) is sit back and close my leg and he goes “Oh, okay” and keeps moving even if he’s still not sure.

I know a lot of people who would respond to the uncertainty in that 99% by breaking out the crop and using it. In my experience, that just creates a more nervous/reactive horse the next time, and the time after that, and the time after that (and even if it deadens them, the reaction is a lot bigger when it does finally come). A lot of times I think people really do need to just press the pause button, take their time to walk their horse up to that scary jump in the ring at home and let them sniff it (or, in my horse’s case, pull the fake brush out of it and turn it into a toy as soon as he’s close enough to reach ), and go from there (see also: when he turned the water tray into his own personal splash pad).

Obviously you (g) can’t do that in the show ring (well, you can at some local unrecognized shows where they’re nice about things like that as long as it doesn’t take too long) or at a (typical) clinic, but I personally think that if people were more patient at home (or just generally when schooling), a lot of the reactivity that can come up would be less pronounced in general. I also think there’s a tendency for some people to equate patient and permissive when in reality they’re two different things. To me, patient equals “I’ll give you a chance to stop, take in, and process this at your own pace, but then you have to do it,” while permissive is “Dobbin is scared of this jump so I’m just not going to go over it and will give it a wide berth in the future.”

I’d love to live in a world where horsemanship on the whole is a combination of patient and firm, but patience with horses is a skill in and of itself and it doesn’t seem that it’s often taught properly either.

Perfectly said.

[Knights_Mom]

@Alterration

I don’t think the two are equivalent at all, excepting the public outcry bit.

Let me ask you - what do you think the endgame is? If you follow this to its logical conclusion, where does it end?

I know what I’ve seen over the last 35 years, and I think we are in dangerous territory.

The endgame is easy. Sympathetic training and riding. No violence.

At a clinic, lower a jump. Ask an easier question. Bring back confidence of rider and horse. This is very basic Clinic 101 stuff.

[Alterration]

@Knights_Mom

Maybe beating the crap out of it, or flipping it over backwards isn’t the best approach TO BEGIN WITH and the fact no one is saying this doesn’t speak well to horsemen being able to police horsemen

Except that no one did EITHER of these things.

You’re forgetting that bit.

[anon56064099]

I know I’ll be in the minority here but I have over two decades of corporate experience and an undergraduate degree in public relations from one of the top journalism schools in the country so I’ll share my view.

The concept of ‘SLO’ and the ‘Central Park Rule’ is not a winning one. I don’t agree with David O’Conner in the slightest and here’s why:

It’s an implicit acknowledgement that horse training is abusive and led by folks who previously have been training in the ‘dark’ and need to now adjust their practices for the general public. I don’t train that way, the trainers I work with don’t train that way, and an overwhelming number of the amateurs I’ve met over my last 30 years in the sport don’t ride or train that way. We’ve been training in the open for years and sharing more and more content on social media, publicly about it. Top sport is top horsemanship.

It’s elitist. The best thing about horses is their disconnection from material concerns and consumerism. They love those who love them regardless of who can write the biggest check. I can certainly imagine a world where people who don’t have show-quality barns or millions of dollars in facilities but who are doing their best are deemed ‘not humane enough’ to own horses b/c they’re in a muddy pasture or because they’re working with a rank young horse with training problems because it was the only horse in their budget. Suffice to say that rank young horse now takes a long ride out of the country on a packed livestock trailer to be slaughtered. Hoo-rah for welfare!

It’s unproven. Since when is kow-towing to angry, uneducated online mobs a successful or admirable strategy? They’re not experts, I assume they don’t presume themselves to be experts at anything but Googling and elevating them to the position of such never works. By all means, if you want to advocate for a real life that’s as close to your current view on Facebook or X as possible, go for it. I’ll pass.

> It’s insulting to animal welfare advocates and detrimental to animal welfare causes. Just as the ‘Central Park Rule’ is an implicit acknowledgment that all equestrians were previously abusers, it implies that animal welfare is a topic solely occupied and led by nutty, extreme zealots. That’s not the case. Animal welfare should be and is led by those with deep working knowledge of the animals and informed and improved by scientists as new data emerges. Temple Grandin works in humane slaughter for god’s sake. Talk about doing good where it’s most needed.

It’s outdated. People are moving beyond outrage culture. The pendulum of acceptable behavior is moving away from making decisions based on uninformed outrage with cultural leaders from all walks of life, all views and all political persuasions speaking out for rational thought.

Ok - I could go on but I don’t have time. SLO is a losing prop. I couldn’t disagree with David O’Conner more.

[anon56064099]

Forgetting is a kind way of phrasing what I think is occurring here. If libel protections against public figures hadn’t been completely eroded decades ago, there would be legal consequences and protections against people actively and willfully spreading lies. We’re in the era of protected misinformation and it shows.

[Alterration]

@trakehners

I also think there’s a tendency for some people to equate patient and permissive when in reality they’re two different things. To me, patient equals “I’ll give you a chance to stop, take in, and process this at your own pace, but then you have to do it,” while permissive is “Dobbin is scared of this jump so I’m just not going to go over it and will give it a wide berth in the future.”

Just to return to this - they are definitely two different things.

I find that people are short on patience but vast on permissiveness.

An example of hitting that I feel is very unfair - boarder walked into a pasture with a bag of carrots. She fed all the horses carrots but one horse in particular was a little persistent. She hit him. Unfair. He kicked her in response, so I’m hopeful that she learned that lesson.

An example that I feel is quite fair - large spoiled horse will not move on the lead rope. Nothing new that he is afraid of. But he has been allowed to drag people around and been bribed with treats.

Cluck. No effect. Lead rope whooshing at the hind end, no effect. Lead rope “bites” horse with a smack on the butt. Horse is surprised but walks forward and is praised. Next time the cluck is enough. Fair.

What most people do…cluck. Horse doesn’t go. They keep clucking, cajoling, they plead, they pull and they bribe. Horse learns they don’t really have to go. Horse regresses to the point that they can only be led with a chain. Can’t be loaded. You think I’m hyperbolic but I’ve seen it repeatedly.

It is far better from a horse’s perspective to be patient and clear. The lack of clarity is what gets us.

[Knights_Mom]

@Alterration

@Knights_Mom

Maybe beating the crap out of it, or flipping it over backwards isn’t the best approach TO BEGIN WITH and the fact no one is saying this doesn’t speak well to horsemen being able to police horsemen

Except that no one did EITHER of these things.

You’re forgetting that bit.

No they didn’t DO it. They just TAUGHT it. To youth. And up and coming trainers. Yanno, spreading the legacy.

[HipNo34]

@anon56064099

It’s outdated . People are moving beyond outrage culture. The pendulum of acceptable behavior is moving away from making decisions based on uninformed outrage with cultural leaders from all walks of life, all views and all political persuasions speaking out for rational thought.

I love all of what you’re saying but talk more about this because I haven’t totally been feeling this this week. Is this really where we’re going or is it ideally where we’re going?

[Alterration]

They did not teach it.

Teaching it would be showing how to flip a horse. It’s actually surprisingly difficult. I’ve never done it and I know on some bolters I have pulled wicked hard and not done anything near flipping them.

She said it as an offhand comment and for you to repeatedly insist otherwise shows your lack of knowledge.

[Knights_Mom]

@Alterration

They did not teach it.

Teaching it would be showing how to flip a horse. It’s actually surprisingly difficult. I’ve never done it and I know on some bolters I have pulled wicked hard and not done anything near flipping them.

She said it as an offhand comment and for you to repeatedly insist otherwise shows your lack of knowledge.

They pay a ton of money to hear a world famous trainer say “If it were me I’d flip the horse over”. That’s’ almost just as bad:

1. Offers no thought as to WHY the horse is being disagreeable
2. Offers no solution other than violence at that time
3. Presents the fact that famous trainer must think it’s okay to flip a horse.

There are more reasons as well.

[Alterration]

Thank you. This deserves to be on repeat. I’d love to hear more about how we should handle it. It’s clear that giving the unwashed masses more power is not the way to go.

[Inimitable]

This is a sincere question, did you watch the whole clinic?

[anon56064099]

Sure - Jamie Dimon and Bill Ackman are the most notable and recent examples of leaders pushing back against uninformed outrage and ostracizing entire groups of the population with name-calling, predatory editing and the like. There’s been quite a bit of push back and dialogue against the Ivies including the firing of two College Presidents following their perceived tolerance of anti-semitism on campus following Hamas’ attack on October 7th and the subsequent war.

The conversation began back in 2019 when Barack Obama notably spoke to this: “This idea of purity and you’re never compromised and you’re always politically ‘woke’ and all that stuff. You should get over that quickly. The world is messy, there are ambiguities. People who do really good stuff have flaws. People who you are fighting may love their kids. And share certain things with you. ”

Obama went on to note that he is bothered by a trend he sees “among young people particularly on college campuses” where “there is this sense that ‘the way of me making change is to be as judgmental as possible about other people and that’s enough.’” Added Obama: “That’s not activism. That’s not bringing about change. If all you’re doing is casting stones, you’re probably not going to get that far. That’s easy to do.”

After Obama went public with that statement, many pubs started publishing articles echoing those thoughts. And many very young, more radical people ‘cancelled’ Obama for their view that he was just another pawn of the ‘system’.

Anecdotally, I read the NY Times, the Economist, Barrons, the WSJ, Reddit, the Post, etc., on a regular basis and have noted a significant change in the tone of comments. It takes time for all of us to absorb the outrage and shock when systemic failure is exposed. So the pendulum swings and we throw out everything. Then, upon reflection, we say - hmmm, good thoughts there, perhaps we didn’t get all of it right.

If we were physically in rooms with most of the people with the loudest online microphones, it would be easier for us to decipher their knowledge and intent. But, we’re not. So the smarter and more empathic you are, the more likely you are to both doubt yourself and to give credence to those who don’t deserve it. Dunning-Kruger and all that.

[Knights_Mom]

@Inimitable

This is a sincere question, did you watch the whole clinic?

I did not. Watching the rest would make no difference even if she sprinkled pixie fart dust on all the horses.

Her comments were inappropriate. Period.

[Alterration]

Horse wasn’t being disagreeable. Rider was not being firm enough to stop him straight. He was just cantering off to the left or to the right and it did not appear that rider was doing much to change that. Problem was getting anchored as the rider continued to allow the horse to ignore her completely ineffectual aids.

Trainer used hyperbole as an offhand comment, trying to emphasize that the rider is just letting the horse canter left or right instead of halting after the jump, saying that he would stop on a dime if she rode the horse because she wouldn’t have let him get away with blowing through her aids.

Most of us, watching this in context, completely understand this. Doesn’t even take any mental gymnastics to get it.

[Inimitable]

Dog bless you for still trying to have a productive conversation with this zealot.

[Alterration]

lol, must be all that danged patience.