Did you read the press release from USEF that JinxyPoo linked above? The USET finals are equitation finals last time I looked.
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They arenât children. They are upper teens to early twenties, and are de facto professionals.
My daughter is 10 and plays youth ice hockey with one of the top travel teams in the country, one that regularly produces division 1 college and NHL players, and is also a middling softball player on a town team. If you think Katie was rough, you should hear what comes out of the mouths of the local youth sports coaches on the regular. Nevermind the parents themselves. They make her look like the queen mother of sunshine.
I watched the entirety of both sessions while they were running. My impression was that she was tough but also quick with compliments when deserved. I donât think the exercises she set were helpful for the horses or riders for a one-day clinic format, made some of the horses go worse as they went on and sapped confidence from the riders, especially those on borrowed horses. Also not a fan of sitting around practicing hitting your horse who has done nothing wrong.
She wasnât wrong that these kids have done so much equitation they have no idea how to keep a connection but also actually release over the top of the jump without stiffing the horse in the mouth. It was also clear that a lot of them have sat on nothing but really well-schooled, well-prepped horses and she had to help them through some disobediences that any of us who have ridden naughty babies or OTTBs would have no problems with.
Overall a mixed bag for me, there was some good, there was some bad. My kid watched with me and thought she was âtough and kinda mean sometimes but also gave complimentsâ and would have no problem having her as a coach.
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Are you actually being serious. You said âthe equitation finalsâ were the determiner, which most people would infer as medal maclay. Which with the passage you pulled out above is not the case. Only USET is included there, which isnât really an equitation final in the same sense as the others, among many other qualifications that donât include medal/maclay.
Itâs not? I think that would certainly come as news to most of the participants. As well as the judges.
I also said quite clearly in my post that I did not remember the specific clinic qualification requirements off the top of my head.
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Whatever, MHM. Donât know why you need to die on the hill when you were mostly wrong.
Thereâs no hill involved. Just statements of fact, thatâs all.
If you look in the USEF rulebook, the class in question is listed in the equitation rules, not the other sections of the rulebook.
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Exactly. This argument is largely over semantics. Calling someone a birdbrain isnât exactly going to cause lifelong damage! Saying to run your horse into the wall, simply means that if you do not make a commitment as the pilot not to turn under any circumstances, the horse will since your wishy-washy ride and the exercise has no effect.
I recently saw a comment from someone on this topic. She saidâ If you donât want to get better stick with someone who tells you what you want to hear.â Some students didnât know how to properly shorten their stirrups. Some didnât know how to saddle their horse. I can promise you that if they rode with KATIE , they would know these things.
The complaints being made about having students learn how to apply the stick and the connection of the stick with the vocal aid. How are students going to know this if they arenât taught and they donât practice it?
I left these forums sometime ago because of this attitude. Iâm not coming back to see anymore of this slander against one of the preeminent equestrian. This country has ever produced⊠And I am absolutely certain that not one of those students is sitting home ready to give up riding because of their experience. If they are, they should quit nowâŠ
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Agreed, but also if I offered my horse and the riding was potentially negatively effecting its training or sale-ability⊠Iâd also pull them.
The lesson should be adjustable for both horse and rider to improve them
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Iâm not sure if Iâm just commenting, as is my intention, or inadvertently replying to someone. If the latter, sorry, I donât mean this to you!
The video of the first group to do the gymnastics session is still unavailable on CMH.
This is also a disservice because you have a lot of people posting their opinions in free-for-all forums with zero source material available for context.
Iâm mad at myself for saving these sessions to watch on a crap weather day. I saw a few clips (not the âhighlight reelâ that has Facebook going) but nothing I thought rose to the level of hysteria in some of the FB comments, particularly from our European friends. KPâs comment about a lack of discipline stuck with me because it reminded me of a trainer I rode with as a kid â it was something delivered when students needed to hear it, especially students with professional aspirations.
I wouldâve liked to heard the infamous âflip a horseâ comment in full context. Like other commenters, I wondered if she was using hyperbole to get her point across. Likewise, how does KP define âa lickingâ â is it one one good swat with the stick⊠or hauling off on some poor horse as weâve all seen some yahoo or other do?
Who teaches the teachers and what are our expectations here?
We have exceptional riders worth learning from and people who are exceptional at developing horses who are also worth learning from, some people who are both â and then there are people who are good at teaching.
Coaching in sports isnât like teaching the primary or secondary levels.
Being an educator is an art and skill set that are pretty specialized unto themselves (coming from a family of educators, including one whoâs just shy of an EdD).
There seems to be an expectation that people be the proper combination of the above if theyâre going to do clinics or coach.
Along with having a healthy dose of media awareness / training, and communication skills thrown in. Because, OMG, the whole world and internet are watching.
These days, on the receiving and listening end, I donât think we encourage a whole lot of critical thinking or a strong grasp of nuance and hyperbole â but we expect the people doing the teaching to have a firm command of their messaging and its delivery.
I am a member of that older, âjust suck it upâ generation so I have often admitted to struggling with whatâs healthy, whatâs coddling, etc. I donât necessarily expect a person worth learning from to be a smooth communicator or ânice.â I am used to meeting a clinician where they are, not the other way around, more so even than with my own trainer.
I can remember coming home in tears as a teenager and my mother telling me âyou can learn something from everyone. Take what you can get and move on.â â A big part of her pragmatic attitude was that, at that time, I thought I wanted to do horses professionally so a greater level of fortitude, and emotional management on my end, was required, if I âreally wanted to do this.â
There were trainers who were tough (the âyou lack disciplineâ ones) and trainers that, even in the late 80s and early 90s I would use the phrase âverbally abusiveâ to describe. The latter, in retrospect, I didnât learn anything at all from. ETA: this trainer was no Katie Prudent, either.
You can say itâs as simple as treating people with patience, kindness, and respect but we canât seem to figure out what the shades are in between âself-care Sundayâ and the Karolyi Ranch.
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And if the riders arenât experienced enough to not take that literally -such that thereâs a risk of harm to either horse or rider- then the language needs to be changed so they donât do it literally.
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One thing I really didnât understand is to look at the trainer when they are talking to you. I can get it at a walk, but when youâre working I thought you are supposed to look ahead of you instead of at your trainer? Unless they are demonstrating something?
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I wrote this last night because two events happened really near each other and it got me thinking. I saw the video of bits of Prudentâs teaching, and then I saw someone talking about how much they miss George Morris teaching these clinics.
I donât think Prudent really meant sheâd flip a horse over backwards or sometimes a horse needs a beat down. But I do think her comments reflect a very slowly dying monster of the riding world; a culture of degrading on riders, pushing ourselves too far, and using unfair tactics to train future riders.
I was trained, at least part of my riding education, by this cultural monster. I was told to arch my back so far it hurt when I was 6. I was told âHospital or ON!â when I had fallen, cracked the brim of my helmet and tore up my knees in the sand at 10. I cleaned my own blood off of my saddle more than once. I did no stirrup lunge lessons where I was actually crying from pain when I was 12. From my teenage years, I have video footage of my winning an equitation round while, in the background, you can hear my trainer telling my mom how terrible I looked and how badly I was riding. I was told to loose weight for the eq, had my elbows tied behind my back because the bend in my arms wasnât right, and was told to two point until I collapsed from exhaustion. I was pitted against my fellow riding students, not for competition but because the one who took the most insults, who did the most painful exercises, the one who took the most shit would be the trainer favorite and that came with perks. Trainers were gods to be revered and worshipped. They could do no wrong. More than once I left a lesson not feeling good about myself, or my horse, or actually crying.
This was the norm. People paid a lot of money to be taught this way. Prudent would have been mild by the standards of the day. Videos of George Morris, screaming insults at teens, would circle the internet, with people lining up to pay thousands of dollars for the privilege to be told they ride like a sack of potatoes, or to take up golf instead. Riders would proudly show photos of the inside of their thighs, raw, from the first week of no stirrup November. Children (or adults) who didnât want to be trained like they had somehow shown up in an army boot camp were told that they âcouldnât take the pressureâ, that this sport âwasnât for the faint of heartâ, that they âhave to suffer for the privilege to rideâ.
That method of training was not right. It was verbal, and sometimes physical, abuse. Many trainers have realized this and changed their ways. Some trainers never taught this way to begin with (and good on them!).
Trainers are not gods. They have no supernatural knowledge that makes them better than any other human. Their experience allows them to help riders and horses get to where they want to be, not some innate ability that is only developed through torturing others. They do not need to act as gods, and riders do not, and should not, need treat them as ones.
To ride is a privilege, but I, nor no other human on this earth, owe that privilege to their trainer. We owe it to the amazing, beautiful, intelligent, compassionate animals we work with. Your horse doesnât care if your heels are so far down it looks like you got your Achilles tendon cut, if your back is properly arched, if you can ride for an hour with no stirrups. Your horse cares about if you are balanced enough to not get in their way, If you are fair with your aids, and if you have a cookie for them afterwards.
In an age when itâs getting harder and harder to entice people to come to the barn, we need to be as welcoming as we can to any rider. No one wants to be screamed at. No one wants to be tortured. I say a phrase a lot to my students; âI want you to be able to walk tomorrowâ. I say that because there were days I could not after a lesson. I was so sore, it was hard to function. That should not be the case. The goal is that every ride, the horse and rider walk away saying âI enjoyed that. That was a nice rideâ. Because we do this for FUN. In the days past, people forgot that. We can improve our riding and be able to walk the next day. I promise.
Unfortunately the cultural monster dies slowly. There are still trainers out there that you can pay for the privilege to be screamed at. I routinely see people refer to the âgood old days when trainers were trainersâ while posting photos of George Morris. Thereâs lesson programs out there that will torture you on the lunge line until you cry, then scream insults at you until you cry more.
Interestingly, most of the people extolling the benefits of this training method donât ride anymore. Take that as you will.
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For what itâs worth Katieâs Group 2 gymnastics is still available on CMH. It starts with the captioning âgroup oneâ but itâs actually group 2. I watched it when live and group 1 was glitchy, it appears they are attempting to fix it.
Nah. I used to ride/work for a former GHM student (and representative of the US team on many occasions) and she would never speak that way. It was always about how the rider could be better - I could not imagine her saying anything to do with flipping a horse over. Thatâs horrific, even in metaphor.
I can handle tough love or even just tough, but if thatâs the best an instructor can come up with, the delivery is lacking.
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100% agree. I watched both sessions- Katie is a god and I would love to have the opportunity to work with her. She keeps it real and is trying to train the next generation of equestrians. Basics of horsemanship has gone by the wayside. She didnât say anything that was detrimental to a rider. Her training methods work and I wasnât offended by them.
Itâs sad and what the future holds because of how we must coddle people today. So much of the horse basics have been lost, and will
Continue to be so. Many kids these days canât ride any side of a horse is it hasnât been already well prepped- by guess what- riders / trainer like Katie that make the horses go so well.
@grzywinskia you grew up riding with someone who trains just like Katie-
Are you saying it was bad? The riders in this clinic are not children- and probably offended to be referred to as children. Horses are dangerous when not ridden properly.
Riders are dangerous when they donât ride properly. Trainers are dangerous when they donât teach the riders how to ride.
Katie is a legend. With the bs that is this topic and SM itâs disgusting.
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I saw (and know) who originally said that, and I would take it with a HUGE grain of salt.
I debated saying anything, but the comment is getting so much traction on social media, and thereâs been no confirmation that itâs true. Itâs why I hate social media sometimes ~ anyone can say anything and itâs repeated as fact.
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Itâs so wild to read comments like these and think the issue is coddling people.
âSo many of the horse basics have been lostâŠâ when weâve learned more about equine behavior than ever before; which also means dismantling previous learnings that are harmful for horse and rider. The issue is extinct ways of thinking that we know are no longer effective.
Give the horse a good sticking or flip them is an old school form of thought when we now know better. More than likely, the horses were overfaced and reacting to that â because new education has taught us that.
Katie is in a new world with an old school form of thinking that no longer applies.
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Give me a break.
I was a student in those programs. I still ride today. I still ride at a high level and will continue to do so. It was tough- but you know what- I wanted to get better.
It makes me sad to see that the next generation of equestrians donât know Jack sh*t about horsemanship. About being tough. About wanting to get better.
The people who just want to ride- donât need the top programs.
Those that want to be coddled wonât make it to the top of the sport. If the sport was easy, everyone would do it.
You think our sport is any different from other top level sports and coaching? Katie Prudent is a TOP Coach. She is there to teach TOP students. To make them better.
Not you, the ammie or child.
I came across a TikTok account called grab mane. The trainer talks non stop in her lessons-
Does not shut up. Does not let the rider think. Teaches her students the most incorrect things- like pump your elbows; bring your leg back to change the bend. Sit the trot when the horse is hollow and tight- wtf.The worst instruction Iâve ever seen. And then sadly, I see many other âtrainersâ teaching more crap. It boggles my mind.
Beezie, Laura, McLain, and the likes are not going to be around forever. And sadly, the next generation is not going to cut it for the future of the sport on teams for the USA
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Iâm going to put this out there one more time for the people in the back that maybe didnât hear me
Wanting to be treated with basic curtesy and respect â wanting to be coddled.
Not subscribing to training methods such as beating horses or running them into fences â allowing the horse to push you around or not listen to aids.
Maybe the reason I had such a visceral reaction to this was because I would simply NEVER speak to another person the way Katie spoke to those kids/young adults. Even someone who I was frustrated with. I was raised to treat people with dignity and respect and that tone matters. Youâre NEVER too important to treat people and horses with respect and kindness.
And while Katie may be somewhat of a legend in the horse world, letâs all remember that the horse world isnât the real world. Put these legendary trainers in regular clothes and have them walk down the street, no one would recognize them. Donât understand where anyone gets off speaking to another person like that.
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