Liver chestnut; is it a real thing?

[Kyzteke]

Is there an actual “liver” gene? Is there a test for it? I ask because I will be breeding to this stallion:
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/licosto.shtml

He has been described as both “dark chestnut” and “liver” depending on the source.

The mare I plan on breeding him too is basically the same color…mane/tail noticeably darker than her body. She doesn’t look “black” but is a dark, chestnut…much darker than normal.

I bred this mare, so I know the color of her parents. Mom was
a palomino (no doubt, because she produced a cremello when bred to another palie). Sire was either a buckskin or what they call in the Teke world “golden bay.” Based on HIS parents (which I saw), I’m betting buckskin.

I don’t know the color of LIcosto’s dam; I believe his sire is a black bay.

So tell me about a true “liver” chestnut. I sure love the color and wondering how to go about producing it.

[Spike]

http://www.horse-genetics.com/chestnut-horses.html

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Spike;7393483]
http://www.horse-genetics.com/chestnut-horses.html[/QUOTE]

Ok, so is there a test to see if you horse is AaAa?

[JB]

Liver is just a shade of chestnut, just like there are varying shades of bay and brown. There is no “liver” gene.

Ea is supposedly only found in a few Spanish (Iberian?) horses, so not something you’re really going to see in the general population

Ah, reading a little further, I see you were actually asking about the Agouti status. AFAIK, Gower’s hypothesis on Agouti affecting the shade of chestnut has been disproven

The best way to get a liver is breeding 2 livers together.

[JB]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7393688]
Ok, so is there a test to see if you horse is AaAa?[/QUOTE]

I think just the way she/the article presents the variations of Agouti makes it confusing. She’s just talking about whether horses are hetero or homozygous for Agouti - Aa or AA. So yes, there is a test for Agouti

[Kyzteke]

Double post…sorry

[Kyzteke]

I just skimmed the article, but the sentence I zoomed in on was (something like) “there is evidence that most liver chestnuts as Aa Aa.”

So JB if it is not true that it is the presence of the agouti gene that darkens basic chestnut to liver, what DOES? Do they know?

And totally OT…she says that new research indicates “sorrel” is genetically different from chestnut.

Really? I was always taught “red is red”. Of course, I don’t really keep up with the color genetics stuff…they must be making a ton of progress these days…

[Derby_Lyn_Farms]

There is a brown gene, separate from the bay gene. There is even a test for it. Makes me wonder if they will discover something in the future about liver chestnuts.

My liver mare has thrown regular chestnuts when bred to a buckskin and palomino.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Derby Lyn Farms;7394728]
There is a brown gene, separate from the bay gene. There is even a test for it. Makes me wonder if they will discover something in the future about liver chestnuts.

My liver mare has thrown regular chestnuts when bred to a buckskin and palomino.[/QUOTE]

Has she ever produced another liver? If so, what color was the stallion?

[enjoytheride]

There’s a liver chestnut gelding at my barn. It’s a very nice color in the summer but you’ll want to hide your horse in a barn during shedding season as they look like a moth eaten blanket when they shed.

[VirginiaBred]

The title of the thread made me laugh out loud because IT’S MY VERY FAVORITE COLOR IN THE WORLD AND THE HARDEST TO GET! (sorry for shouting! )

I do love a liver… <3

[quietann]

I’ll ask about this on the MorganColors FB group. There are lots of liver chestnuts in that breed, including my mare’s sire.

[JB]

Brown is another variation of Agouti, so still, there has been found no correlation between AA or Aa or aa in the shade of chestnut. Or rather, I should say, there is nothing so far that proves its effect.

A friend of mine has a very pale chestnut -she looks like she is red dun, has many dun factors, but tests negative - who is AA. Now - is she really A+A+ - homozygous for wild bay? If so, that would lend some credence to what Gower hypothesized about wild bay making a chestnut light. Sadly, there is no test for wild bay

There are also livers who test AA - I don’t know if they are actually AAt or AtAt though.

There simply aren’t enough chestnuts tested for Agouti to have a better handle on it.

Sooty is another issue at play - not testable, but also hypothesized to have a strong effect and can actually turn some chestnut hairs black - a few to a lot, and the “a lot”, if it’s sooty, can be seen in the Morgan breed where they are infamous for “black chestnuts” and extremely dark palominos

Here’s another chestnut who is a pretty normal shade, and is tested AA
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/272515_10150219792931748_2446625_o.jpg

This one is pretty much the same shade but is Aa
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/471055_10150839109406748_1147627570_o.jpg

So, that goes towards disproving that wild bay would make a chestnut light, and that bay or brown would make it closer to liver.

I will have to double check on this, but I THINK I read somewhere that breeding chestnut to palomino to produce a liver was best done by breeding a lighter, “clear” palomino, if that makes sense. I really need to check that.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=quietann;7395176]
I’ll ask about this on the MorganColors FB group. There are lots of liver chestnuts in that breed, including my mare’s sire.[/QUOTE]
I spent some hours reading a very detailed entry on Wikipedia on horse colors, and , while they didn’t mention anything specifically about what causes the liver color, they DID mention it is common in Morgans.

I would think this would be an excellent survery/study group on which to “go hunting”. Anyone ever contact Dr. Sponenburg and suggest this?

I assume when you color test a horse you must pay for each individual color test, right? You don’t get the complete thing for one price?

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=VirginiaBred;7394962]
The title of the thread made me laugh out loud because IT’S MY VERY FAVORITE COLOR IN THE WORLD AND THE HARDEST TO GET! (sorry for shouting! )

I do love a liver… <3[/QUOTE]

Don’t blame you for shouting…I like it MUCH better than a true black or any of these pearls/champagnes, etc.

Of course, it MUST have some chrome, but I just think it’s gorgeous!! And so very, very rare.

[Derby_Lyn_Farms]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7394766]
Has she ever produced another liver? If so, what color was the stallion?[/QUOTE]

She has only ever had the 2 foals. The one foal was a darker chestnut than the other. The darker foal was by a dark palomino, dark chestnut but still not a liver. The lighter foal was by a light buckskin.

[twelvegates]

Anyone ever heard of the “black liver chestnut”?

http://irishhuntersandjumpers.com/DreamsComeTrue2012.html

[JB]

[QUOTE=twelvegates;7395917]
Anyone ever heard of the “black liver chestnut”?

http://irishhuntersandjumpers.com/DreamsComeTrue2012.html[/QUOTE]

Yes, as I mentioned above the Morgan breed has what is commonly (there) called “black chestnut”, which is the darkest shade of liver Of course it can be found elsewhere (iirc the Welshes have a decent amount of it), but to nowhere near the extent as in the Morgans. Same with the palis - see the link I posted - nearly black looking tested palomino

[quietann]

Sadly, not coming up with much so far beyond “There’s some sort of modifier” and a private email about a registered “black” Morgan stallion who had two “liver chestnut” parents – yes, livers can be that dark!

[Home_Again_Farm]

[QUOTE=quietann;7396143]
Sadly, not coming up with much so far beyond “There’s some sort of modifier” and a private email about a registered “black” Morgan stallion who had two “liver chestnut” parents – yes, livers can be that dark![/QUOTE]

In the 80s I boarded at a small Morgan and Saddlebred farm in Gainesville FL. The owner had an absolutely gorgeous liver chestnut Morgan stallion. I wish that I could recall his real name. His barn name was Blondie, for his flaxen mane. He was very nearly black. He was a talented and kind stallion. The farm was Raindrop Farm and his owner was Alicia Davis.