Liverpool vs Butterfly

So what’s the difference (to the horse of course!) between a Liverpool and a Butterfly Bit? Specifically a mullen mouth. They both are leverage bits with varying amounts of leverage options.

Why one over the other?

Why don’t they make 5 3/4 rather than only 5 1/2 and 6 ??

thanks in advance

Horse feels the mullen mouthpiece, not much difference to horse in what cheeks the bit is wearing. Curb chain is the same. What setting you put the reins in, either cheekpiece, is the difference in the bits.

Liverpool offers more options in setting reins for the horse. Butterfly is pretty, nice lines, wider bottom ring loop, might make it less likely to snag reins or harness on a Pair of horses. No one is supposed to NEED the bottom rein ring so it is a decoration anyway. Does go flat on horse face, if you are bending very tightly, rein is outward from horse head. Liverpool can’t go outward, with the half ring in front of the mouthpiece.

Bits are made in the most sellable sizes. Easier to jump by the half inch, over the quarter inch in changes. Vendor will have less stock on hand to eat up inventory money. You can add rubber bit rings, which will use up a quarter inch of space on the mouthpiece if you need to.

Or you can hunt further, harder, for that exact size and mouthpiece or have a bit made to fit the particular horse. Sometimes “inexpensive bit” is an oxymoron term. Just doesn’t happen with the special ones you NEED!

liverpool vs. butterfly

i prefer the liverpool over the butterfly for a couple of reasons:
-more settings (as previously mentioned)
-more accuracy-the ring goes in the setting with not much room to move whereas with a butterfuly there’s a bit (ha!) more room to slide around when you’re trying a subtle half-halt. i have found this to be the case sometimes on the LARGE snaffle setting of a glory type liverpool bit and occassionally the snaffle setting of the liverpool.
-i have seen a butterfly shank get caught on a shaft end before (horse trying to rub) not pretty. very bad news. this could also happen with some pair pole ends.

you can get fixed cheeks of both kinds from different bit manufacturing companies. the Glory Metal Works bits can be as well as several types from Driving Essentials and so on. Iowa Valley Carriage has a nice supply of bits for pretty low price. Excellent for “trying out” different types, but always be careful. a bit is an important piece of equipment and sometimes you get what you pay for. and not. :winkgrin:

you can get bits in 1/4 inch increments, in some bits from some manufacturers. driving essentials sales some to these and glory bits can be almost custome made.

I have had 2 different ponies catch something on the bottom loop of a Butterfly. We thought it was a fluke the first time, first pony caught it on his collar, we backed up rapidly over the plastic chain intot he ring, where the single horses were whizzing around. But then the second pony got it caught 3 different times, on different thigs… I don’t even know where that bit is now… thought it best to not push my luck anymore.

I use both and prefer the Liverpool both for its stability and for the additional rein slot choices. I always drive in the upper ring of the butterfly and things go fine but just a few weeks ago I put the reins on the lower ring for the first time in a bid to keep my starving (:D) pony from diving for spring grass while jogging along and the bit was unstable enough in the horse’s mouth that it rotated forward to the point that he was able to get his tongue over the bit. We were just about to cross a busy road when it happened and I knew immediately what had happened because tongue over the bit is the one thing that brings this pony to a dead “I can not take another step” halt. Luckily I had a passenger along who got down and wrestled the pony’s tongue back under the bit and put the reins back on the upper ring so we could carry on. Otherwise we might still be standing out there in the middle of the road. :lol::eek:

I and the ponies prefer our Glory bits with Liverpool cheeks and the next time I have an extra $80 I plan to replace the butterfly bit with another Glory bit. I, too, could use bits in 5.75" width. I use 6" width and that’s OK but 5.75" would be ideal. I’ve looked high and low for years and it’s just not a size that is readily available, at least not in anything I consider to be affordable.

more thought

My trainer preferred a Liverpool too. I didn’t get the logic (duh!) but you are all helping me make the decision. I use to laugh when I would thumb through catalogues and see a bit advertised somewhere for $175 :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Are you kidding! for a bit! But now, I see it not that unusual. Sigh :sigh:

ps. Never heard of Iowa Harness, got to check them out. The stuff at Driving Essentials is lovely… just often way out of my spending comfort level.

I would not recommend a fixed sided bit, for driving. It makes the bit less “able to talk” to the horse, in my opinion. If you can move one side, while the other bit side stays in place, you are doing two things with it. Holding the still side of horse in place, while maybe bending the other side. Gives the horse a feel to aid him in holding position.

We call fixed sided bits, ridden or driven, H style, because that is what they look like. In years past, olden-days, these were the most common bits because theconstruction, manufacturing skills needed for the movable sides, were hard to come by. Made them more expensive. Horses were not expected to do the activities we ask of them now with bending in the head, neck, shoulders, barrel, haunches, independently. With the H style bits, if you touch one rein, the whole bit is affected, horse can not get any subtle signals because the whole bit moves at the same time. No flex with straight back pull.

I know some folks still like the fixed side, often pointed at as Multiple bits. I had a runaway once, back in the beginning of my driving career. That H style allowed no ability to turn, pulling one side just made bit go sideways in her mouth. I ended up running her into a tree. We have tried using some of our old bits as a solution now and again, but always end up feeling like horse is not able to understand us, because we cannot finesse the reins with the H style bits.

I think the many options in bits that allow each side to communicate apart from the other bit parts, are vastly improved over the old designs with fixed bit sides. Ridden, my horses are better able to understand what I ask by lifting one rein, one side of the curb bit. Driven they are going to be able to work with me, though perhaps a little limited with no rein out to the side as when ridden. The lines of reins, bit, shoulder rings, saddle terret, hands, can force the Driver to ask differently than the Rider is able to. Horse will be bringing his ridden skills, understanding of the bit, to Driving and usually will “get it” quickly when moving to body bending, flexing and going into collection when asked from the carriage seat.

I consider better bit design one of the major improvements in the horse activities over the last couple decades. Bits that talk better have allowed that to happen.

Really? It may be we’ve a difference in Europe and have always had a good range of options, but I didn’t think there’d been much change at all.

I’ve bits that are ancient that a lot of folks think are new.

Good posting and explanation re bit function.

Anyone ever seen one of these?
http://www.neueschulebits.com/acatalog/Fixed_Cheeks.html
Just curious with the movement through the mouth piece.

The picture appears to show the sides uneven, which leads me to think the port on mouthpiece has the hinge in it. Hinge is covered with the barrel shape metal.

Similar to a Myler bit, with the unique swivel joint they have in mouthpieces. Joint is totally covered with barrel, no chance of horse getting a pinch.

This is one of the big inovations in bit making now possible, that was not previously. Mylers have one design, when shanks are pulled equally, locks the joint to appear a solid, ported mouthpiece to the horse’s tongue. Yet if only one rein is lifted for signal, the other side stays in place to steady the other side of horse. Sure can offer more options to the rider in training.

R Holyoak, going back in that site you posted, they had a section marked “Revolving Liverpool Bits” which shows the same photos, but has different wording to name the bits, prices are more too.

http://www.neueschulebits.com/acatalog/Revolving_Cheeks.html

So I think the folks used the same photos on your page and mine, instead of the correct bit photos for your page. With adding the Revolving to the name of bit, the barrel swivel look, bottom of shanks not matching in photo, makes more sense.

I expected your page to show a solid mouthpiece to go with the fixed cheeks.

Would be interesting to try the revolving bit out, see what it feels like with a horse on the reins. I have looked at the Mylers, you can get them with Liverpool sides, all kinds of mouthpieces. 3 of the 4, take 6" bits, so they would all need to be custom made by Mylers. Kind of pricy for an experiment!

Our bits all have swivel sides with the Liverpool and riding bits. Medium Port mouth seems the most popular mouthpiece. One horse likes a mullen mouth now and then. We don’t use any straight bars, no place for their tongue to go when pressure is applied. Mouthpieces are thicker, at least 3/8", some thicker.

One horse used to love her loose-jaw mouthpiece. Just lifted and dropped the mouthpiece when standing, kind of a pacifier, heard the tink-tink noise very softly. Gave her something to do, a non-pesky behaviour as an outlet. Better than developing some other poor behaviour! Just a horse with a mouth fixation, liked to chew the chain shank when standing. Never bad, just kept her busy. You work with them, accept what you can, because the alternative is ALWAYS worse if horse has to choose one!! Husband said it was too bad she could not manage gum like the kids. Of course then she would have been blowing BUBBLES too!! She is retired now.

Fixed cheeks

I had always heard that fixed cheeks should be used with a pair. The Liverpool bits on my pairs bridles have swivel cheeks which I prefer for all the reasons Goodhors mentioned. The rationale that I’ve seen for fixed cheeks with a pair is that the coupling rein will pull the cheekpiece sideways (or otherwise askew) on a swivel-cheek bit. However, I did a little informal experimenting some time ago with my swivel-cheek Glory bits while hitched, using my eyes and those of an observer and we did not detect the cheekpiece being pulled outwards at all by the coupling rein when rein pressure was applied. This was with the rein in the first curb slot. I would expect even less chance of it happening with the reins on rough cheek or other snaffle setting. So I continue to use my swivel cheeks with the pair and I like the softness and flexibility they give. I don’t want any moveable mouth parts on my bits, though! My horses go well with solid mouthpieces, nothing to play with, nothing to distract them. :lol:

Thanks for the thoughts on the neu shuler bits.
A little expensive but I might give them a try or the Myler.