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Local knowledge of forage. Strange theory

I love to watch animals select the grasses as they graze. The cattle, goats, sheep, and horses we have typically use unimproved pastures. We mow as needed, overseed occasionally, and control poisonous weeds. Other than that, grazing animals pick and choose what they want to eat. We add minerals and nutrient sources and this all seems to work pretty well.

Have you ever stopped to think about the amount of thought that goes into the selection of what the animals actually eat? Some things are potentially harmful, but apparently quite tasty. But the safer grasses and forbs eaten by horses acclimated to their pastures….I don’t know. I see a level of intelligence there.

So, my weird, strange, theory. We’ve moved our animals to a brand new climate in a state where very different things grow. Ruminants are much easier to put out on grasses because they just aren’t as susceptible to digestive disorders as horses are. Nevertheless, we brought an older cow from our previous state, who needed a companion anyway, so we bought a local heifer before turning them out on grass. It seems to have worked. I was hand grazing our cow before we bought the heifer and she selected different grasses than she does now. I believe she has benefitted from local knowledge that the heifer learned from her mother. They graze together and, although our older cow is in charge, she eats what the heifer eats.

Our horse, pony, and donkey are on dry lot right now. Their pasture won’t be ready until we replace some barbed wire. It’s also quite rich and they will have to be introduced slowly. In fact, the pony and donkey will only have access to a small area. The horse, however, I think could benefit once we are in the position to buy a local horse to show her what to eat. I was even thinking of finding a retiree to hang out with her.

What do you guys think? Horses have amazing senses of smell, but I think they might benefit from local knowledge. So many plants are related, but can have very different biological effects.

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I think there is something to what you are thinking. I also think that given the chance, lots of varied forage, horses will seek out what they need, eating herbs when needed.

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There is a Facebook group on a similar topic: Equi-biome. Not a lot of activity in the group, just educational posts.

It’s associated with a company that does sequencing of the microbials of the hind gut:

From my casual following of what they do, their premise is basically that in the wild, horses would be selecting a wide variety of forages as needed to support both their own health and the health of the microbes in their guts. We jeopardize their health by removing that variety.

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Thanks for the link! That’s interesting.

I hand graze my horses in the natural habitat park/bog where the barn is. So I get to stand and watch what they eat. There’s a lot of swamp grass that is yummy early season but way too twiggy by August. Also they are very particular about which weeds to eat. Horses can’t see right under their noses but with lips whiskers and nose they can pick out dandilions from among the buttercups no problem. It is very interesting. These are well fed on hay so when they graze its stuff they really want to eat.

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Whether horses can learn local knowledge of forage from another horse or not- I can’t comment on that. My horses moved here from a stabled/paddock environment on the coast, and acclimatized to semi arid 100 % turn out with pasture for much of the year, and no one ever showed them what the locals were eating- they musta figured it out for themselves. But I do know that they are experts at selecting grasses and herbs that are “good”, and seek out mineral licks that supply what they need. How they can select one grass or herb and avoid another at close quarters is amazing, where they can’t see what they are doing, very dexterous lips. They know far more than we do. This is why it is so important to run a mower around a pasture after horses have finished grazing it down, doing this stops the plants that have not been eaten from going to seed, and allows those plants that have been selected as horse feed and grazed down to be able to grow back better.

Horses love to eat many things that we don’t purposefully feed them. Tree bark being one of those things… poplar is choice around here. The sap runs sweet in the spring (I’m told, by horses) and trees are ringed. Which is OK, because although it will kill the poplar tree, many more will sprout up from rootstock. But young poplars are no good… they don’t get good until they are reaching maturity. Dandilions are also excellent feed for horses, and greatly valued by horses. Many hay farms spray herbicide on dandilions (and the grass around them), to get “rid” of them from the hay crop. This is only because they do “slightly” reduce the yield of hay on the field. We DON’T do this to our hay fields, which go through a stage of being bright yellow with dandilion flowers in the spring. And we still get good tonnage. Once the flowers die down, the grass and alfalfa grows up just fine and the yellow fields turn green, we find. Our “much sought after” hay for horses always has some dandilion leaf in it, and every scrap is cleaned up by horses all year round. When I deliver a wheel barrow load of loose hay to my horses in training in the summer months, the licking up of the “chaff” on the bottom of the barrow is of prime importance- that’s the shattered dandilion leaf.

IMO, horses are not meant to only eat a monoculture of herbicide sprayed grasses. And when a horse says that the hay is “no good”, just because it looks “fine” to the human, doesn’t mean that there isn’t an issue. Horses KNOW. Humans DON’T know, they just think they know.

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Not to take this thread on a total tangent, but the spraying of hay is becoming a serious problem for me and my herd.

I don’t know if it’s herbicides or the propionic acid preservatives that have become so popular, but my horses won’t touch the majority of “high quality” hay I buy lately if it’s been treated.

The frustrating thing is a lot of the people I buy hay from are middle men who have no clue how the fields were managed and will tell you whatever you want to hear. They reliably supply “pretty,” high nutrient hay for top dollar, guarantee you clean bales, etc. But it’s not worth it when the horses won’t eat it!

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My horse came from Argentina and when I hand graze her she tries to eat things I do find odd. Weeds that I know other horses would not eat (malva, hemlock, lichen on fallen twigs from cypress trees) and I do wonder if she is missing something…

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their olfaction is about 50 times more acute than ours. And WE can determine what we want to eat by it’s smell. We can differentiate different spices by their aroma…we know what we like and don’t like. I am guessing that a horse will probably not be very willing to test something that doesn’t smell good/like something they know to eat unless they are hungry and not much else to eat, or there is SOMETHING in there they smell that they crave…a mineral that might be otherwise missing in their diet. I’m not sure about what you postulate, but not discounting it either.

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I was riding along on buckle end and allowing my horse to graze a bit, taking swipes at the long grasses and flowers we passed because it was his day out as much as mine. Our companion horse had never been permitted to graze in such a way (considered to be bad manners) and it was interesting to see how she watched my horse and then tried a flower or two for herself. They do learn a lot by observation. She very soon got the idea!

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i pre-ordered this book this morning. Maybe he touches on this idea in here?

https://www.bookdepository.com/Immense-World-Ed-Yong/9781847926098?ref=grid-view&qid=1655853865818&sr=1-1

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That looks like a neat book.

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Studies have shown that they learn from each other, so why not learn about food?

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This is why I am so very happy with our decision to make a serious move away from the hub of human “civilization” 15 years ago, make a big change in horse care, and make our own hay. I never complain about the heat, or the long days on the tractor in the summer, snowy days in the winter (well sometimes), or my aching back. Because of the pay off. The hay. I know every field, and what grows there, and what goes into every bale. The freedom from hay dealers is epic. We don’t have to buy from hay dealers, and we don’t sell to them either. Highly recommended. Even more so when I see the prices people are having to pay to buy horse feed.

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tell me about your equipment!
I’m tired of the guy who cuts and bales for us. Every year he comes later and later. He is a month too late this year.

Sure, I can talk about this indefinately LOL. The farm has 40 acres of irrigated hayfield, which is about 30% alflalfa, and mixed grasses. We also have “worked up” some low ground, naturally subirrigated, with natural grass mix, some timothy, some orchard grass, etc, about 6 acres in all now. None of these fields had ever been hayed before, pretty rough. These grass fields are MY job entirely (other than mowing), and I small square it and pick it up by hand. DH doesn’t like small squares, but he has helped me pick them up as a thunderstorm was approaching!!! My tractor does not run our mower, it does not have back hydraulics, so he cuts these little grass fields for me in succession, as required. It takes about 20 minutes each, we cut a couple acres at a time there. He cuts the big fields the same, the amount we can manage in one session, the 40 acres we divide into 4 quadrants. Our equipment… we buy practically nothing “new”. We buy mostly older equipment, no computers, all mechanical. The DH is pretty handy with some of the work and upkeep. We came to this farm 15 years ago, with our 32 horse open station Kubota, which we bought to manage our previous farm in 1996. This is now “my” tractor, I use it for farm chores, and do the raking on the hayfields, DH refers to it as a “toy tractor”. It also works the small square baler (OLD) which we bought for $1500 when we first moved to this farm. We bought a new rotary rake a couple years ago, new, it was about $5000 I think. We bought an OLD JD 90 horse tractor, for $18,000 when we bought this farm, bought it from a friend- it was too big for their farm. It has health issues, but is very dependable and the DH both loves it, and curses it. Our mower is a discbine (highly recommended). We had a sickle bar mower previously, it was hopeless once we got these fields in shape and producing adequately. The discbine was used, we bought it from a dealer, I think it was $11,000 but we traded in the sickle mower for part of that. After doing square bales for the first couple years, we switched to doing round bales for our main crop, small rounds, 600 lbs. Bought that baler new. It’s fully manual, no computers. You can pay $60,000 or more for the fancy new ones, that do “everything” for you and “anyone” could operate them. This one, we paid half that, new, the DH operates it, you have to weave over the windrow as it picks up the hay, and stop at the correct moment, and manually apply the twine with the lever… so it does take some skill to operate. The DH taught himself how, and he makes nice bales with it. It takes a bit of practice to get it right, but it’s quick to get things baled, and if it rains before you can pick up, it doesn’t matter- the rain just runs off the bales without penetrating much. Just leave them out on the field to dry the outside again. We’ve replaced the belts in it once, did that job ourselves. I help. He figures out how.
If you have 10 acres or so, and a tractor that will do the job already, you need a mower, a rake, and a small square baler, all that are in “functional” state. The rake and the baler are pretty cheap to pick up. The mower, maybe not so cheap, if it’s a discbine, they seem to hold their value more. With older equipment, you NEED someone who can do some mechanical work on them, every now and again. And for it to not be completely ruined junk when you buy it. To operate a decent mower, you need back hydraulics on the tractor, and a tractor of a decent size (not my little 32 horse).

Yes, I imagine that waiting for an outside haying operator and watching the weather go to shit as your crop gets overmature would be a major PITA. We see this happen around here, with a few of the smaller parcels in town (yes, we have hayfields in “town” LOL) who do not have their own equipment. And then you only “get” a percentage of the hay.

Good luck with equipment shopping! Farm auctions are always interesting, but you have to have someone who knows machinery so that you don’t end up buying worthless JUNK. If you buy from a dealer, you will pay more, and at least some idea that maybe the machinery works (but trust NO ONE!!!). We bought another big tractor from a local dealer a few years ago. The dealer guaranteed that it was in good condition, they had been “all over it” to check it out etc. When we got it home, it was overheating immediately. DH found that the previous owner had crammed cardboard in front of the radiator, for winter use. The dealer who had claimed that they had “gone all over it”, had FAILED to find cardboard - ie, they had NOT done what they claimed to do. Also, the air conditioning in the cab was not working, and it cost us another $5000 to get it working. So do not trust these arseholes. The dealership was sold to a new owner right after we bought this tractor, and they are even worse than the previous owner. If you buy a tractor with a cab on it to do haying, it MUST have functional air conditioning, because otherwise it is an unbearable sauna in there, to the extent that the operator will get heat exhaustion, even with the doors open, when haying. We also needed this tractor to do our winter driveway snow clearing on our 1 km long driveway, and the heater works just fine.

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In addition… if you have a tractor that will do the job (or even if you don’t), there is an option to rent haying machinery “short term” from a dealer who is local to you. They deliver a field ready machine for you to use, and pick it up again (and often deliver it to another renter) when you are finished with it. There may be some hope that you will buy the machine after renting it to try it out. It’s usually used machinery that they have on the lot, but it is “field ready”. A mower, a rake, and a baler. You can rent the tractor you need as well of course, but that is more money.

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i have only a 75hp JD. i have asked to rent haying equipment in the past, but i’ll circle-round and ask again. There is new management (though now a larger operation with 8 or 10 locations)

Good idea! Thanks :slight_smile:

Our local dealer does it, rents out haying equipment- they’ve offered to rent us some in past years anyway. Your 75 horse JD should be adequate for most equipment. How many acres do you have to cut?

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roughly 60 acres. If i were making my own hay i would go up and pick up another 15. So then it would be 75.
I don’t want to spend 50k on a cutter and baler though. And it is just me, no handy anybody else to help maintain. If i bought, it would be me and the dealership keeping me going.

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