Long and Low Training Method

[Dressage59]

[QUOTE=Abbie.S;8538711]
It’s going to take some time for those muscles to soften and for the correct LIFTING muscles to build up. Those muscles on the underside of her neck are helping her brace and hork her front end up instead of using her abs to lift her back.

I really like starting on a 20 or 30 m. circle, opening inside rein, keep them straight with the outside rein and bump them off the inside leg. When you get that right, the poll drops and the neck softens. Then go up to trot from there. Most of the time they’ll maintain it for a couple strides then go back to hollowing out. Down transition and repeat. You’d be surprised how quickly they start to get it.[/QUOTE]

Hi, My post didn’t link to yours. I’ve been doing this at the trot and it’s just gorgeous when she drops her head. Of course, then it pops back up. Does it make a difference whether I do it at the walk or trot?

[Dressage59]

[QUOTE=lorilu;8538858]
The most important thing is to keep the horse pushing from behind and up in his withers. Then he is doing correct long and low. Different horses work best at different degrees of “lowness”, and that also changes day to day and certainly as the horse develops strength. At the start there may be times of BTV as you try to encourage lifting the withers. Don’t live there. As strength improves, so will this.

Low work has worked wonders with all the horses in my trainers barn. Some are friesian crosses with high neck sets. Others are Iberians with similar conformation. Most recently, my new Luso who came hiding behind the bit, in a very nice posed frame. At 14, I was not sure if this could be changed. Two months later he is developing real push from behind and accepting contact with a longer neck. :)[/QUOTE]

Congratulations! I’m excited to hear that it’s working.

[Dressage59]

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;8538871]
If the lower neck muscles are more built the horse is being worked incorrectly and this will continue to happen.

When worked correctly the top line will be more pronounced with no muscle underneath.

Are you lunging with side reins or are you just running around at the end of a rope? I would say you are doing the latter. JMHO.

Side reins do not kill and maim horses. Lungers who don’t know how to use side reins kill and maim horses. If you don’t know how to use them you need to be taught in person. You NEVER pull a horse in with side reins. To start with it looks like they are not working. If you have them at the right length after a week of lunging you will see a difference without shortening the reins to make a difference.[/QUOTE]

My reply didn’t link to your post, so here it is again. Essentially I had a well-known trainer give me a lunge lesson. Her advice was to lunge her for 3 months and then call her back. At that time, she tightened the side reins and said to eventually move them up the surcingle so that they mimicked reins, which I did. Eventually I stopped use of the side reins. If she acts up on the lunge line, I bring her in to a smaller circle.

[Dressage59]

[QUOTE=HicksteadFan;8539370]
When I discovered this method I first allowed her to learn to stretch out without side reins. You don’t need side reins for your horse to learn to do this. Then I put long side reins on to get her to do the same with contact and seek contact. I learned a lot from the ArttoRide YouTube channel. (Many people don’t like it so choose for yourself whether you want to incorporate these methods).[/QUOTE]

I really enjoy the Art2Ride channel and have been following it, hence my questions. I think the previous trainer’s advice about tightening the side reins wasn’t good and unfortunately I followed it. I have a different trainer now and I think his focus is to get the horse in a frame more so than building her top line. Of course, maybe most trainers think the top line will come.

[Dressage59]

Thanks everyone, the advice has been tremendous.

[mvp]

I find that for a horse who is weak (with that upside down neck) and uneducated, it works best to teach them to go long and low under saddle. I do that at the walk on a circle if the horse really has no idea how to relate to the bit. Once the horse understands that, I use the momentum of the trot to help him want to use his lower neck (on top near the withers, not the underside) and his back and hind end.

I know a horse can do some good work in side reins, but I think that only works if he already is pretty educated about the bit. I find that side reins often aren’t responsive enough for my taste. But I’m good with my hands, so my standards for a piece of equipment that can be more responsive and “articulate” with a horse’s mouth is pretty high.

I do see the value of long-lining a horse on a circle if I want some form of non-riding work on the horse’s top-line. And something like a Pessoa bitting harness can be of use in the right hands. I have one and use it sometimes.

My overall point is that I wouldn’t start with sidereins and lunging for a horse who didn’t know anything about the bit or who didn’t have any topline/experience with being ridden so as to develop one. OTOH, once a horse has this education, he’s much easier to get back into shape.

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=Dressage59;8540772]
I really enjoy the Art2Ride channel and have been following it, hence my questions. I think the previous trainer’s advice about tightening the side reins wasn’t good and unfortunately I followed it. I have a different trainer now and I think his focus is to get the horse in a frame more so than building her top line. Of course, maybe most trainers think the top line will come.[/QUOTE]

I’ve had three horses in my horsie life and all three almost taught themselves, LOL
All three. At a walk, I would slowly choke up on the rein as far as I could without making the horse mad. Then push with butt and let the reins slowly slide out of your hands. Keep walking. When his head comes up, do it again, and again. Believe me he will really like it. I can’t see side reins or lunging when it’s so easy.

We used to call it following the bit down. And horses also use it as a break for a few minutes.

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=Dressage59;8540748]
Great! I appreciate this. I’m working 20 m circles and when I half halt, supple on the inside, she drops her head - just beautiful. Of course, then it pops back up. I’ve been doing this at the trot. Is it more beneficial to do it at the walk until she can hold it?[/QUOTE]

Half halt puts the balance on the haunches, top line arches, horse becomes more compact. It is the tiniest and quickest of movements. To keep the horse round and soft, keep the elastic contact with the hands, ride inside leg to outside rein.

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;8541135]
I’ve had three horses in my horsie life and all three almost taught themselves, LOL
All three. At a walk, I would slowly choke up on the rein as far as I could without making the horse mad. Then push with butt and let the reins slowly slide out of your hands. Keep walking. When his head comes up, do it again, and again. Believe me he will really like it. I can’t see side reins or lunging when it’s so easy.

We used to call it following the bit down. And horses also use it as a break for a few minutes.[/QUOTE]

“Slowly choking up on the rein as far as you can without making the horse mad”…I am not at all sure what this is. Not how horses are taught to adjust neck, accept and seek contact, follow the length of rein and the outline that is set by the rider.

[CFFarm]

I find it helps to teach the horse poll and jaw flexions from the ground and at the halt. This helps a lot getting a horse truly forward thinking onto the bit. As your horse learns about contact, he will naturally stretch long and low following the rein seeking the contact because that elastic stretch feels good. When you let him on the buckle he will reach down in relaxation showing a lack of tension for the same reason.

[ivy62]

Where we board now they do long and low as a warm up and a cool down. My horse can be a bit forward and tense so I use it to bring him back to a relaxed state. He swings his back nicely while doing this also.
A fellow boarder has a beautiful Fresian. She had no real training when she was bought and the training method has built a nice strong top line and the horse is relaxed in her work even when asked to round and be connected.

[netg]

[QUOTE=Dressage59;8540748]
Great! I appreciate this. I’m working 20 m circles and when I half halt, supple on the inside, she drops her head - just beautiful. Of course, then it pops back up. I’ve been doing this at the trot. Is it more beneficial to do it at the walk until she can hold it?[/QUOTE]

What are you doing with the rest of your body? It sounds like you’re just using your hands to set your horse’s head, which is why the head pops back up. No change in the body means nothing will change in how the horse carries itself and the head will come back up. It needs to be inside flexion, then a head lowering off your leg and seat, not off your hand.

@Dressage59;8540772

I really enjoy the Art2Ride channel and have been following it, hence my questions. I think the previous trainer’s advice about tightening the side reins wasn’t good and unfortunately I followed it. I have a different trainer now and I think his focus is to get the horse in a frame more so than building her top line. Of course, maybe most trainers think the top line will come.

And the description above fit perfectly with his teaching, very front to back, very incorrect, and why so many people dislike him.

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=Color of Light;8541180]
“Slowly choking up on the rein as far as you can without making the horse mad”…I am not at all sure what this is. Not how horses are taught to adjust neck, accept and seek contact, follow the length of rein and the outline that is set by the rider.[/QUOTE]

Wrong words? What I mean is shorten reins inch by inch and using a “collection” seat, then let them slide out as the horse follows the bit down with a “driving” seat.

[Dressage59]

[QUOTE=mvp;8540786]
I find that for a horse who is weak (with that upside down neck) and uneducated, it works best to teach them to go long and low under saddle. I do that at the walk on a circle if the horse really has no idea how to relate to the bit. Once the horse understands that, I use the momentum of the trot to help him want to use his lower neck (on top near the withers, not the underside) and his back and hind end.

I know a horse can do some good work in side reins, but I think that only works if he already is pretty educated about the bit. I find that side reins often aren’t responsive enough for my taste. But I’m good with my hands, so my standards for a piece of equipment that can be more responsive and “articulate” with a horse’s mouth is pretty high.

I do see the value of long-lining a horse on a circle if I want some form of non-riding work on the horse’s top-line. And something like a Pessoa bitting harness can be of use in the right hands. I have one and use it sometimes.

My overall point is that I wouldn’t start with sidereins and lunging for a horse who didn’t know anything about the bit or who didn’t have any topline/experience with being ridden so as to develop one. OTOH, once a horse has this education, he’s much easier to get back into shape.[/QUOTE]

I’ve been riding her since September and she’ll collect and then pop her head up after 1-3 strides, so I’m thinking her topline still needs some strengthening. I’ll probably go with a combination of lunging with a chambon (on the loose side) and also riding. I haven’t learned to long-line so don’t want to learn without a professional. Wish I knew!

[Dressage59]

[QUOTE=netg;8541839]
What are you doing with the rest of your body? It sounds like you’re just using your hands to set your horse’s head, which is why the head pops back up. No change in the body means nothing will change in how the horse carries itself and the head will come back up. It needs to be inside flexion, then a head lowering off your leg and seat, not off your hand.

And the description above fit perfectly with his teaching, very front to back, very incorrect, and why so many people dislike him.[/QUOTE]

I’m using inside leg to outside rein.

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;8541862]
Wrong words? What I mean is shorten reins inch by inch and using a “collection” seat, then let them slide out as the horse follows the bit down with a “driving” seat.[/QUOTE]

Why are you shortening the reins inch by inch and using a “collecting” seat, then a “driving” seat? That’s a lot of taking and too much doing.

From whatever your original position/outline is, just gently ride the horse’s neck longer and forward…by having him seek forward to the bit by following a giving hand. Your seat follows the movement of the back, riding hind legs under the horse. Gently, tiny communication with each corner of the mouth to let the horse know you want him to stay long, round, back up…until you change his posture.

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=Dressage59;8543124]
I’ve been riding her since September and she’ll collect and then pop her head up after 1-3 strides, so I’m thinking her topline still needs some strengthening. I’ll probably go with a combination of lunging with a chambon (on the loose side) and also riding. I haven’t learned to long-line so don’t want to learn without a professional. Wish I knew![/QUOTE]

Collect? But…collection isn’t with the head, it’s with the hind legs coming under, poll highest point, back up, horse shortens the body. This horse isn’t anywhere near ready for attempted collection. Sounds more like hand riding front to back. Is the body restricting the round movement, softness, as is the hand?

If the horse is bobbing head up and down every 1-2 strides…sounds like horse doesn’t understand whatever rider is trying to communicate.

Long nothing more than riding from the ground. If a rider knows how to correctly lunge, ride dressage, has good kind hands, knows timing of half halts and how to follow…then they should be able to long line. If they do not have those 5 critical things while riding, shouldn’t try long lining until they’ve got those down.

[Reina_de_Nieve]

It takes time to develop the muscles in a horses upper neck. In general the muscles in a horses lower neck develop before the ones in a horses upper neck.

[SendenHorse]

long and low isn’t really its own method, is it? It’s for use with the classical principles, right?
Letting the horse have a long neck and reach to the ground is very helpful with all horses, but the actual % time spent will depend on that horse. I’ve done it for 3 months solid with a horse that curled and shortened. but other horses just run when given rein, so it had to be done as a matter of degrees and inches.

All that said, a long and low stretch isn’t that life-altering, it’s just the length of neck you are changing NOT contact. it’s not some miracle cure.

Horses that go better when they are long and low usually are held in contact when on shorter reins, they can swing fully with the rider getting off the face. So it’s not so much a magic tool as a demonstration of what horses are being ridden which way. There should be no major difference in attitude and harmony between one length of neck or another.

I don’t develop the lower neck muscles, I develop the topline. I do however, ask the thoracic sling to engage, so there is some strength from the core/abs. Not the underneck. that is a sign the horse pulls up from the contact, not over the withers.

[lorilu]

OP, if her head is popping up it might be a strength issue, or a confidence issue, or perhaps you are giving too much rein or giving rein too fast.
Riding the neck down is sort of like pushing it down - not with your seat, but by keeping the haunches working and slowly allowing the rein out. Don’t allow it out past the point of contact - if the horse drops the contact, the effect is lost. I was taught to “show the horse the way to the ground” at the trot. Trot a circle on the INSIDE diagonal (the “wrong” one). Without releasing the inside rein, slowly give the outside rein. Horse will follow the inside rein, bending to the inside and dropping the head and neck - then slowly let the inside rein out until reins are level and horse is straight on the circle. Experiment to find out the limit or release. BR SURE to keep the haunches working and pushing. You will know they are as the trot becomes bouncier. This is hard work for a horse who is not used to it - so a few steps at a time… And yes, he may go BTV at the start. It’s a process, don’t worry!!