It’s worth reading.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/92255/commentary-permeating-speed-is-a-problem
So that long drawn out thread “that shall not be named lest it be resurrected”, people argued tooth and nail that the Tb was the same as it was 20 or 30 years ago. Therefore they are as suitable for Wb improvement breeding as they always were.
So good on you for posting this as I know you are a Tb lover through and through, but this is the reality of today. I have one horse with Tb up close, but most of the pedigree is old and is from the UK and she such a different animal then the ones I see more often than not today. I have the utmost respect for those NH type horses, they really are brilliant in so many ways.
With all that said, I think American Paroah is a fine example of a horse- he has a lovely effortless seamless stride.
When the economic profit switched to focus on the breeding shed, sales of yearlings, valuing horses who win the Kentucky Derby and/or shorter races that resulted in loss of valuing/profit from horses with longevity on the track (4 years and longer) and those winning longer races than the sprints. That was a major shift. I always think of the way Secretariat was managed/valued as the harbinger of the huge shift. But that could be wrong.
Race earnings are no longer the profitable part of thoroughbred ownership. And with the decline and slow crumbling of the racing public’s involvement? The tainted trainers and owners with drugs and other illegal methods for ‘winning’ giving racing a bad name (and turning off potential younger owners and race fans).
So sad for the American thoroughbred’s genetics and physical strength.
This is interesting but not really news. There was a lot of writing about this around the time of Big Brown, whatever year that was. Including a really interesting article about the difference between the way English and European TB racehorses are trained the way US ones are trained, with the English/European way being considered much more horse-friendly.
I was interested to see that the linked article was dated May 2015 since, as I said, this is not really news. But obviously it needed to be brought to mind again since the earlier articles don’t seem to have made any impact on the US racehorse training philosophy.
It’s sad is what it is. Here in Cali you can’t get those longer races to fill, they continually write short races with all kinds of very imaginative conditions, but anything that’s a true route race your left hanging as to if it will actually make the card. The track bias leaves you needing a horse with handy speed or you are up against it from the get go. No way to develop young stock for true distances IMO, there is a lot of blame on the industry itself.
[QUOTE=summerly;8174184]
It’s sad is what it is. Here in Cali you can’t get those longer races to fill, they continually write short races with all kinds of very imaginative conditions, but anything that’s a true route race your left hanging as to if it will actually make the card. The track bias leaves you needing a horse with handy speed or you are up against it from the get go. No way to develop young stock for true distances IMO, there is a lot of blame on the industry itself.[/QUOTE]
Racing has been going more toward the “sprinter” direction for years. It’s easier and cheaper to train a horse to run short/sprints/even 3/4 mile, than it is to run a mile+ distance. The younger generations of trainers cut corners on their training so the horses aren’t fit enough to go a distance. My husband (and I) trained TB’s for 40+ years. EVERY horse galloped at least 2+, “good” miles a day…in hand…not flat out, breezed every 5 days or so and went into EVERY race prepared to finish well and un-stressed. Even back years ago trainers would walk or “shed row” - Hack under saddle, to save galloping/exercise rider fees then run unfit horses that couldn’t make the distance safely and in good health. If they can’t fill longer races…racing secretaries MUST write the shorter ones. it is a downward spiral!! No fault of the TB’s!! We owned/trained/raced/retired (last start was a win when he was 15 years old!) a TB who set and still holds the track record at a MAJOR track going One mile and 5/8!!!) No such races are even run these days except over hurdles. Sad for the breed, but not their fault!! Just a sign of the times!!
There will be a race run the day before the Belmont Stakes which is called the Belmont Invitational Gold Cup and will be run at two miles. The only horse named in what is believed to be the field who has ever run two miles is a hurdler. There are maybe two horses who have done a mile and a half, and all the rest are clear “maybe they can do the distance.” The old Jockey Club Gold Cup was two miles in the 60s and a bit of the 70s, was dropped to 1 1/2 miles and is now run at 1 1/4 miles. It was traditionally a Belmont race.
The genes of the two turn horses are still there. The genes of the two mile Jockey Club Gold Cup are still there.
As to the trainers, quite a few of the biggest names in TB racing got started in QH racing. There’s no reason why they should have competence at distance.
The genes of the two turn horses are still there. The genes of the two mile Jockey Club Gold Cup are still there.
I am not sure I understand this statement. Do you mean the modern US horse should be able to or that with multiple generations, it could be selected for again?
Here’s the Wikipedia article on the Jockey Club Gold Cup. If you look at the winning times, you will easily see when the length of the race changed. The horses who won at 1 1/2 miles and 2 miles are still found in the pedigrees of current TBs, just not close up. If anyone cared, TBs could be back bred on those lines to stamina.
All this may have something to do with Emmeline Hill’s speed gene–MSTN 18. Perhaps in the US we select for it more than is common in the rest of the world, so our TB population is more CC than CT or TT. I personally think that gene got into the TB from the US around the turn of the 20th century.
Edited to add that there is also a SINE insertion that may be related to speed that is found only (to date) in TBs, QHs, and three other breeds in the Americas. So if it is important, that would seem to indicate that the SINE insertion in the TB did come from NA.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25273961
Whole paper is here:
http://www.izs.it/vet_italiana/2014/50_3/VetIt_61_178_3.pdf
Are longer races offered anywhere now? I only ask as it seems the bloodlines /breeding has become very global-- how much is not being able to go a distances also how they are trained (as crosscreek also eluded to).
http://www.pedigreequery.com/leading+light4
Above is the example of pedigree of last year’s Ascot gold cup winner (2 1/2 miles) – a very long race-- also won at 14 f( 1 1/2 miles? and 16 f ( 2 miles)
Yet he has Northern Dancer, Mr Prospector right up there and grandsire Sadlers Well was a champion miler. SW, a miler, made distance horses when put on (bred to) a stamina bred mare apparently. So like everything–is it the mare base that is the issue?
Also another article --dont know how valid but thought provoking
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/stamina-lines.html
The Melbourne Cup in Australia is not quite 2 miles. Races over 2 miles are not uncommon in France, Ire and the UK. The final race in the UK Triple Crown is the St Leger, which is 1.75 miles. The UK Triple Crown consists of a 1 mile race, a 1 1/2 mile race (their Derby), and a 1.75 mile race. Last horse to win their Triple Crown was a Northern Dancer son, Nijinsky.
Probably the greatest race in the world is the Arc, and it’s about 1 1/2 miles.
To me the interesting thing is the list of winners of their 1/ 1/2 mile Derby–the equivalent of our Belmont. A huge number of their Derby horses go on to be great sires. Many of them were US breds who raced overseas, and many of them were imported in the past to the US and became great sires here. Yet in the US, Derby winners have rarely become great sires since the 1980s and the Belmont winner almost never.
Just for interest, Julio Mariner won the 1 3/4 mile St Leger as a three year old; he went to Holland later in his stud career and did quite well with jumping KWPNs.
It will be interesting to see How California Chrome gets on at Ascot.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91583/california-chrome-adjusting-to-newmarket
http://www.tiassatech.com/domino/saga.nsf/story/C3AEC918003A0ABD85256A7E000AC0F6?OpenDocument
As long as you have horses around like this one, I think you some wonderful horses around:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/disposablepleasure
I am certain that quite a number of American TB’s would be able to run longer distances with different training.
Pretty much exactly what I was saying in my posts in the TB/Holsteiner thread.
THe American TB of Today is NOT the horse of 30 yrs ago. It has lost so many of the qualities that made it so wonderful as a component in sport-horse breeding.
And, as an aside, the fact that TBs are being bred for speed more & more is more than part of the reason the TC has not been won in 30+ yrs. TC is not won with speed…it’s won with stamina, grit & soundness.
American Pharoah might pull it off, but mainly because he’s not up against much…
