Looking for a Hail Mary solution to try

[Mondo]

@arabiansrock - Sounds like you’ve made the right, if difficult, decision. I am sorry you’ve spent so much money and time and effort trying to figure this out. It sucks, but we often have to be detectives since the horses can’t talk to us. I don’t think ill of your trainer, they are trying to do what’s best for you and the horse and trying to help you get it figured out. That’s good horsemanship.

When you said this: “So we had vet out. Injected hocks, and front coffins. Vet cane back in 3 weeks, no pain on palpation in the hocks, but still slightly not right behind (more obvious once the hocks felt better), so he said lets inject stifles. Front feet still reactive to testers, so I had him xray front feet, both side view and navicular view. The coffin bone is angled correctly, Very very slight signs of roughness at edge of navicular bone. Vet felt that it was most likely that the ddft was inflamed where is passes between the navicular bursa and the navicular bone. He gave me 2 options. 1 was inject navicular which is xray guided, or try shockwave. He has had great results with shockwave and it is non invasive so we did schockwave. He came back 2 weeks later and did another shockwave. Horse was improving in front movement after each of those treatments. Also we asked about putting pads on and he said xray shows thin soles so that would be worth a try. So we had pads put on right after the first shockwave treatment”

I have to confess I was horrified. No horse that “has never taken a lame step” would need that degree of work. Poor horse. I know you want to do the best for him. I’m sorry you have to take him back to that unscrupulous seller, but at least you won’t be spending MORE money on another horse since you obviously can’t sell this one. It’s a rock and a hard place. I feel for you. Let us know how the new horse works out.

[candyappy]

@arabiansrock

We never would have ridden him from day 1 if we had known he was in such pain. Actually would not have bought him if we knew he was in that much pain. Of course seller said “hes sound, never taken a lame step with him”

He had to be sound and riding well when you/ trainer tried him before purchasing ?

Was he also ridden by the owner so you could see how he did with his current rider?

[NaturallyHappy]

You know, this horse could have appeared sound when they tried him…better living through chemistry. I always recommend pulling blood during the PPE. One just never knows…

[lazaret]

It’s been my experience that a horse with a DDFT issue, even just inflammation, cannot be made sound with systemic painkillers - it would have to have an active nerve block of the entire foot.

Had a horse come up with a DDFT issue, not a strain or tear, due to a slight negative palmar angle, and even the blocks only lasted maybe 10-15 minutes. Beyond that the horse was L-A-M-E, only on one side thankfully. But headbobbing, limping, “does he have an abcess???” lame. A wedge pad fixed it after a few days of systemic painkillers to resolve the inflammation while taking the pressure off. Without fixing the shoeing job, there would have been absolutely no change.

I really suspect a lot of this horse’s issues are related to pain in the front feet that is not resolved. The footing in the arena may exacerbate it. A bilateral lameness in front won’t present as a limp, but that is what the horse likely feels like doing.

[arabiansrock]

thank you everyone. The horse came with crappy feet, track shod as he was being used as a pony horse. Footing at the track should be fairly similar to footing in an arena, so I don’t think footing was the issue. HIs feet were angled wrong, long toe, little heel, balance all wrong. My farrier worked to stand him up correctly and get his feet balanced. But you can only adjust so much Vet approved foot angle after reviewing the xrays. Palmar angle was very good. I do believe he was bilaterally sore, so did not appear lame. Yes seller was a horse trader type which I did not know until we were there. He is also a race trainer. At least I am giving back a horse who is in better shape than I got him. Joints improved, feet balanced.

At this point, I am hoping that at least I get a horse that is sellable in the trade, so if it doesn’t work I can sell it and at least recoup some of my money so I can try again. Best case is the trade horse is actually a good match and I enjoy riding it.

New horse will be vetted properly about a week after I get it. Want to make sure I enjoy riding it first before I pay for vetting.

[fivestrideline]

@arabiansrock

At this point, I am hoping that at least I get a horse that is sellable in the trade, so if it doesn’t work I can sell it and at least recoup some of my money so I can try again. Best case is the trade horse is actually a good match and I enjoy riding it.

New horse will be vetted properly about a week after I get it. Want to make sure I enjoy riding it first before I pay for vetting.

Please take this kindly, but I think you’re going about this all backwards.

Vet the new horse BEFORE you bring it home. Use a vet not associated with the seller AT ALL, maybe even different from your trainer’s vet. Get a truly unbiased evaluation of suitability and soundness; the seller greatly misrepresented the gelding you have now so why would you go back for round 2 with the same amount of blind trust? The cost of a vetting is a drop in the bucket vs what you’ll spend chasing a new horse’s potential issues (I mean… you’ve JUST gone through this!). Think of it as heartbreak insurance.

I missed it, but are you able to trial ride any of this seller’s horses or are you having to buy off pictures and trust their description? Ride the horse at the seller’s and decide if you like it. Where is your trainer in this?

Please do everything you can to not trade one problem for another. I know you’ve spent a lot of money already, but to be honest I’d send the horse back, cut my losses, and start from scratch if I was in your position. I know that’s hard to do so at least go in with your eyes WIDE open. There’s a small chance you’ll come out with something decent, but a much bigger chance you’ll just be disappointed.

ETA what happens if the new horse is also lame or unsuitable? There is no guarantee the seller will take it back.

[JB]

@arabiansrock

At this point, I am hoping that at least I get a horse that is sellable in the trade,

Not from this guy you can’t hope that. Your vet, or at least a vet who isn’t the seller’s vet, needs to do a PPE on the next horse you’re interested in. If you’re going to try to work a trade with this guy, that’s especially critical. “Hope” may get you in the same boat you’re in now.

[ParadoxFarm]

Yes, as others have just said, please do the PPE – the first P being paramount – PRE. Otherwise, you are vetting a horse to find out what problems are already yours to fix/pay for. You’re spending the same dollars for the PPE, but if there is an issue, if you do it before getting the horse, your loss stops. If you do a vet exam after you purchase the horse, you not only have the cost of the exam, but the cost to “fix” whatever may be wrong – and chances are they’ll find SOMETHING. Please, do the pre-purchase before you take a new horse home. I know this situation is not typical, since you’re trading horses, but if the new horse has an issue, and you pay for more vet work, you’re in a similar boat as you were with the first horse. At that point, what, you ask for a third horse after shelling out a bunch of money on two previous horses? At that point, you may be better off just sending the horse back and shopping elsewhere. Do you have a bill of sale for this first purchase? There may be legal ways to try to recoup your costs. The seller sold the horse as sound. Your vet(s) probably have an opposite opinion on that.

[NaturallyHappy]

I agree….PPE. FIRST.

[eightpondfarm]

i haven’t read all the helpful advice. But in accordance with the OP, i would ratchet my expectations waaaaaay the heck down. I would treat any tiny incremental step forward as great success. And i would start with teaching the basic elements of R+. IN the arena…on the ground with horse at liberty and build a foundation from there. I’d also nix the whole lunging thing. If the horse is bucking than something went awry in that horses training there too.

If you don’t want to re-start this horse from the ground up, wellllll… i hope you are thorough about finding his next home because this horse needs kind help, not bullish help.

Sometimes it takes a year to rebuild a broken horse. It takes patience and self-control. And i promise you, it will change your life too!

[sascha]

@eightpondfarm

Sometimes it takes a year to rebuild a broken horse.

Short form of all the stuff you didn’t bother reading - the horse is sore. The horse needs to be fixed physically before any training should even be attempted. The owner will be returning the horse to the seller.

[eightpondfarm]

thank you

edit: and poor horse

[Paint_Party]

Apologies for being blunt, but this wheeler dealer guy is going to make sure he always comes out ahead. That’s how he gets by in life.

Have no idea what OP’Ss budget is, or why she ended up shopping at this place. But unless she’s able to ride the horse first, and do a PPE before trading, I’d just consider this a hard lesson learned and look elsewhere.

Must add, though, kudos to OP for getting this horse much needed vet and farrier help.

[Angela_Freda]

@arabiansrock

I am about 3 grand into vet and chiro on this boy

@arabiansrock

Actually would not have bought him if we knew he was in that much pain. Of course seller said “hes sound, never taken a lame step with him”

What did PPE show?

@arabiansrock

Everything you all have said makes me more confident that sending him back and taking a diff horse is the right thing to do.

If they lied about this one, I wouldn’t touch another one from them.
If he passed a PPE, I wouldn’t touch another one from them.
.

@arabiansrock

New horse will be vetted properly about a week after I get it. Want to make sure I enjoy riding it first before I pay for vetting.

Or, do both, ride and vet before trading.
But do not take home before vetting, please.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

@arabiansrock

New horse will be vetted properly about a week after I get it. Want to make sure I enjoy riding it first before I pay for vetting.

Nope, nope, nope.

New horse gets vetted BEFORE HE LEAVES THE SELLER’S BARN. That includes a blood draw to test for any and all painkillers, tranquilizers, etc. that you can test for.

There’s no point in figuring out if you enjoy riding a horse if it’s not sound.

[sdlbredfan]

i tried to delete, since is already irrelevant…

[SpicyPRE]

@arabiansrock

I had a 5500 dollar saddle on trial

$5500 or $500 saddles will not make any difference to a horse who is in pain. I know you adore your trainer, however, I really question any professional who would push on a horse who is dealing with pain. Pretty heart breaking.

[JB]

@sdlbredfan

Assume PSSM or at least feed as if he is, low starch, low sugar, etc.
What does the Vet say? Sorry this was TLDR to see all previous suggestions.

but you really have to read it all, because the horse has had a ton of injections and this and that and still currently tests very sore with hoof testers. She has $1000s into diagnostics and various treatments already.

[fivestrideline]

@SpicyPRE

I know you adore your trainer, however, I really question any professional who would push on a horse who is dealing with pain. Pretty heart breaking.

Yeah… there are plenty of nice people who can train a broke, sound, well suited, and generally cooperative horse to do things. Even more people who can ride those animals spectacularly.

What separates them from well-rounded horsepeople is all the other stuff. The lameness and saddle fit and care and problem solving and green or quirky horse training.

We don’t know you OP, or your trainer. Heck, we don’t know the whole story! But there’s enough question marks here to suggest you could use a different set of eyes on the situation, in person. Maybe you’re ignoring good advice from your trainer. Maybe your trainer is getting a cut from the dealer. Maybe your trainer is out of their element here, or your expectations don’t match.

Do you want to RIDE, or do you want to fund your vet’s new car?

[Djones]

This is a model *hit Show if there ever was one. So sad and so unnecessary for it to have ever happened. So first, I’m SORRY.

Next…

Your ‘trainer’ doesn’t grasp the risk of buying a poorly shod horse off the track with no background on the seller or the horse. RED FLAGS FLYING

You didn’t get the unknown variable of said horse vetted with even a basic PPE. BIG FAT COSTLY MISTAKE

The horse demonstrates behaviors that scare you and tire you out, because you didn’t ask the horse to do the things you were going to ask him to do: Be ridden in an arena, making random circles and turns and stops. He’s used to doing a job, and that job was ponying other horses where more often than not he’s likely serving as the dull anchor they are relying on to slow the spicy racehorse down. THE HORSE DIDN’T GET THE CHANCE TO APPLY FOR THE JOB.

The sad and expensive reality is this. This horse is a square peg that is never, ever, goign to fit in the round hole. It isn’t. Just stop. Looking over the names of people who’ve chimed in here, I don’t know all of them, but I know most from years (god, the years) of being active here on COTH. There’s a couple hundred years of equine experience talking here. Heck, if I start at just age 20 I’m bringing 33 years of every day, day in and day out, owning, managing, training, consulting, commiserating, crying, learning about this passion of mine.

Let this horse go back to the track, learn your lessons, lick your wounds.

TRUE STORY: Once upon a time I was asked by an acquaintance “barn manager” (loosely applied here) to give lessons at a barn nearby, the owners had bought a cute little yellow WP gelding in the dead of winter. BM had found them said horse. Wanted some coaching on taking him to little local shows. easy peasy. Show up, my BM person is there, pulls muddy footed horse out of pen, tacks him up, rides him a lap or two walking and jogging. I thought the horse looked a really quick up front, like heel pain. I hopped on, boy he felt off, too choppy. Hop off, led him to wash rack, rinse the mud and manure off. Ya’ll I have never in my life seen a single pronounced founder ring like this little dude had on both fores (I didn’t even look at the hinds, if I did I don’t remember). I just looked at his feet, looked at Senor Chucklehead, and handed off the horse with very little said, something like “Well, looks like you’ve got a problem here.” and that was that. Never heard another word about the whole sad situation.

Not everyone who calls themselves a trainer or a horseman can find their ass with both hands. They just happen to have a horse and maybe a cowboy hat.