I don’t buy inexpensive ranch types with a vetting.
However I would also not buy a sway backed 10yo. Or anything that’s backsore before I even get it home.
I truly hope this horse works out for the OP. It sounds like she needs a reliable friend.
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Before the vet exam?
Couldn’t this all be related, and take more than a week, or month,… to fix?
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While correct riding can help a poor topline, most healthy out of work horses do not significantly lose topline or look swayed unless they are recovering from a significant episode of starvation.
A PPE is to establish if the horse is sound. The OP has already discovered pain issues without even involving a vet. The horse is not sound and I would not myself take on someone else’s problem if I dont have to.
It’s one thing if you are going into this as a rescue situation where you just want to see how comfortable you can make him. Then you get a vet out to do diagnostics.
But not for buying a riding horse. We need to see photos, but I have certainly seen enough horses with long term wasting of back muscles and incipient sway that nothing ever ended up fixing. And back pain might be cause or symptom or unrelated.
OP does not need a PPE. She needs a refund or a return shipping label. Horse is already unsound and arrived that way.
The seller already warned her “don’t get attached.” The seller knows
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Same here. I’m not sure why the sway back (to whatever degree it exists) and the lack of a topline was a revelation when the horse arrived. Didn’t the OP watch a video of this horse that included conformation poses without tack before agreeing to this trial?
OP shared how her last horse is now retired due to soundness issues that included kissing spine. So why consider another horse with a back that’s deemed already sore?
Sounds like OP is on a tight budget. It’s understandable that choices are limited. But this seller is a wheeler dealer that’s 8 hours away. He has her money and he’s unlikely to ever issue a cash refund, so she seems shackled to him and his assortment of horses (wherever they come from).
And of course this current horse is the ubiquitous unpapered, brown 10-year-old “QH.” I’d definitely want my vet’s estimation of his actual age.
Yes, I sound cynical. But in all honesty, I want the OP to find a sweet, safe horse she and her daughter can enjoy. I hate seeing people being taken advantage of in the horse world. I really do want this to have a happy ending.
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Yes, the horse I buy has to be sound to my eye and in work so I guess, I do my own vet check. Last time I did a trial ride and then I had a lesson on the horse with their instructor, before I bought.
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None of those things apply to the OP, and honestly other people (self included) getting away with not vet checking lower priced horses does not mean that will always happen. Especially since this horse is already sore. A vet check would have prevented this horse from being shipped to the OP in the first place, already needing time off from back issues. This is what happens when you buy horses from low end horse traders. OP has not seen any of these horses in person. OP deserves a sound horse she can ride today.
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I don’t understand why the trainer is letting this persist. Her trainer may be great, but she needs to use a different trainer with an eye and different skillset right now.
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OP please take all of these posts as kindness - people really do want to see you succeed. Being in the moment and so close to this can really mess with your perspective.
At this point you don’t need “your” fancy vet that’s off at a show somewhere. You need ANY vet that isn’t the seller’s to come look at this horse and gauge soundness and age.
You are being MASSIVELY taken advantage of here, and I’m still not sure what on earth your trainer is doing. Are they assisting here or just letting it all happen? Most trainers would like a sound horse for their client so the client can take lessons and do whatever. Or are you paying them regardless? Are you blowing off their advice entirely and they are just along for the ride at this point? (FTR I don’t get this impression from the thread).
Anything you buy that isn’t a “rescue” or companion should be at least serviceably sound. Neither of these animals have been anything close. I am sympathetic to your situation with the retiree - it’s so easy to chalk all your problems up to being That Horse In Particular, and to think just starting over with something new will get you back in the saddle. Sometimes that’s the case, but the new horse has to be sound.
Send this one back too. Any refund you can get is great, but just stopping the hemorrhage of cash until you find something suitable is money in the bank.
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Also, I’m not sure what the initial purchase price was, nor am I counting the thousands in vet work on horse 1, but even low 4s plus shipping horses 8 hours could’ve bought (actual horses for sale that I know personally):
- a nice 15yo 16.1H WB with basic dressage buttons and a packer demeanor
- a cute and kind 15h QH that jumps around with a change
- a 5yo 16h OTTB warhorse with such a good brain and start from his track trainers that I’d put my non-horsey mother on him. And he can MOVE.
I’m frustrated for you OP. And also hoping for the best, you sound like a very caring horse owner.
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I have not and I don’t know anyone in my past that got a vet check/ PPE . You found a horse, watched the owner ride-- showing what the horse can do , then buyer rode and it went from there.
No trials, no PPE and for the most part people seemed happy and horses were sound.
It seems so much has changed … Now so many do the PPE and still end up with an expensive and unsound horse. There are no guarantees.
What I would not do is buy a horse that is hurting and hope it gets better.
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Hi Everyone, thank you for your continuing thoughts. Well It is most likely that this one will be going back also. Which sucks because he has the nicest personality. Really appreciates any attention he gets. Farrier was worried about his feet so vet came out Friday. Xrayed feet and they are in good shape, navicular looks good. So farrier shoeing him tomorrow. BUT vet said lets xray the back. You guessed it, kissing spines. Now the horse is sound right now. He moves really nicely for a quarter horse. And his sore back resolved with a few massages workfrom my daughter. Funny thing, his back is not as dropped anymore either, once she massaged out the knots and sore spots his back came up. Now it just looks curvy not swayed. But there are definitely spinous processes that are way too close. AT some point it will most likely bother him.
As I have said before, if we had known he was a dealer we would not have bought the first horse. And yes, I either walk away and lose 10k, or I keep trying to work with him to hopefully find a sound sane horse. And yes I would much prefer my own vet to do ppe. I trust him, and I know that he is looking out for my best interests. The same with my trainer. She wants me to have a horse that I can enjoy, and she also knows that what I want is my fancy, take me to Prix st George dressage horse, but what I need is a bombproof packer who will make me feel safe. and a st. george packer is def not in my price range. I wish I could get my money back, but that just doesn’t happen in this business, at least not very often.
But while I wait for him to find another horse for me to try, I plan on riding this one and trying to have some fun. If I can get a good picture I will post it. While I have him, I am going to try and build up top line muscle, for the horses sake not for the seller.
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Wait wait wait…
These horses have been $10k??? Or is that with all the shipping and vet costs???
The 15yo dressage button schoolie I mentioned above was out of shape but listed at $2800 for that reason. The TB was $5k and hella negotiable. Just for perspective on what a ride you’re being taken on.
(Also, I’m sorry. Super frustrating adventure you’ve had)
[edit: tense]
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Sales barns take advantage of novices.
My lesson girl, despite my trying to steer them clear, got duped for 15k for a horse with navicular. It’s their business model.
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While I think the OP has been taken through the ringer, your prices must be unique to your area. Horses are priced much higher everywhere else.
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I’m not saying these are easy to find or universal - just that $10k for lame horses of questionable talent is ridiculous. I know of these horses in my area only due to having some good pros in my life and some old contacts - but they are examples of what can be found with some luck.
OP, don’t feel as if this is your fault entirely or be too hard on yourself. Count it as an expensive but valuable lesson in horses and low end traders. The red flags people with years of experience can clock from the situation would in no way be obvious to someone in your position! These shady dealers are usually quite charismatic and know ALL the tricks - they are the OG used car salesmen, after all.
That said, I fail to see how your trainer thinks these are good, steady-Eddie types for you. Nothing wrong with a nice QH or draft cross, but fighting to get it sound from day 1 just seems like a great plan to drain you dry financially and emotionally.
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If this trader is the only option because he has the OPs 10k then I’d pay to have the trainer go out in person and try everything he has. That might be easier than shipping back and forth.
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Ya, I’m not a novice. Been riding for 55 years. Shown up to 3 rd level. However at this point in my life I need a packer. Back in Dec-FEb when I started this saga, we were looking at relatively local horses that were advertised in the 15 to 20k range (and YES I would have paid 20k for a sound calm packer), and every single one we looked at was visibly lame. Visibly. And sellers were like OH no it’s not lame, its just the small arena, got trimmed yesterday, etc, horsey is wonderful! This is why we expanded our range. And when We saw the half friesian half qh (truthfully my trainer wanted me to look at a qh he had at the same time) for 10k stated to be VERY calm and safe (and he is, I never felt nervous on him) we went to look. He was sound when we rode him (or bilaterally lame in front? He has very friesian action in front), and I felt SAFE on him. Biggest criteria. My vet checked him over when we got him home and gave him the thumbs up. front feet issue was not discovered for months. I am just grateful that seller is honoring his trade offer.
Also new boy is visibly sound. Really good trot for qh. IN fact my vet kept saying he trots big like a standardbred. Kissing spines is a hidden disease. I just can’t imagine that he actually xrays the horses backs. Altho from now on I will always xray feet, hocks and back. My trainer REALLY does not like this guy but since there is no refund I am going to try my best to find a good horse in his lot. I am very frustrated with how this has played out, but I do not think he knew that the horse has a bad back. He did tell me that he needs another float soon as he had his teeth done in March but had waves so would need another float. He also was very upfront that the girl he loaned him to had apparently ya’hoed him. We knew upfront that the would need a short tune up to get him back to being lighter and softer.
Would I rather be dealing with a private seller? Heck ya. And now there are nice looking horses advertised in my area for 8500 to 15k that look very appropriate. Prices have come down a bit. Of course we haven’t gone to see any of them to see if they are actually sound since my money is tied up.,
I am just hoping for a sound calm horse that can continue to help me continue to regain confidence and get ready for my last horse which will hopefully be a proper good dressage horse. I was not bottom feeding when I bought the first horse from this guy. I had 20k budgeted. We called one person repeatedly that had a draft cross for 18k, 15.2 hands, kid safe 13 years old. Finally owner called me back and asked if I wanted to vet horse. I said Yes and xrays. She sais what xrays do you want and first one I said was navicular. She went on this long rant about how vets are finding navicular in all horses now and it doesn’t mean anything so why bother doing the xrays. OK then 18k horse with navicular that you want to sell without anyone vetting. Pass. Thats an example of what I was encountering at that time. My real problem was that I needed a horse to ride. Riding is my mental health program. And I did not want to wait many months to find a horse to ride. That was my real problem. And hence why we looked farther afield.
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funny thing is it is actually cheaper to have him bring horse here than it is to drive down past LA, motel, food, etc. Plus when we went we hit Disneyland (he was only 45 min away, kind of had to go.
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Okay, joining in, but OP, please get out of the trap.
What motivation does this trader have to ever send you a decent horse?
You are buying on video and sent them “a list” of wants/needs. The trader can drug them up long enough to get a decent video and will just lie about their suitability before sending them because they do not have to worry about you being there in person.
You are not doing a PPE until the horse gets there. And then you spend a few weeks trying to get them back into shape for riding. You want them to not have their feet done. This trader only sees a free shoeing cycle or two, some free vet care, and free housing.
Are you paying the shipping cost there and back? Another free expense on an otherwise possibly difficult to move horse, or even some extra pocket change if they bring the horse themselves.
I agree with the other poster, you need to figure out how to go in person, and find a vet to PPE where the horse is, or you need to suck up the loss and get out of this trap.
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You may not be a novice, but you are certainly approaching this from a very emotional perspective. I’m really glad to read that your trainer doesn’t like this horse, because heretofore I was going to suggest you find a trainer who knows that you are being hoodwinked big time. You say “since there is no refund…” I get that’s what the seller told your but if that is not in writing anywhere, you can take him to court. IANAL, but it seems likely that you would not prevail. However, sometimes just the threat of being sued will make the duplicitous horse trader back down. Sound like you are being magnanimous and offer to take a 50% refund. DO NOT trade for another horse from this guy. It will not end well. I can’t believe how much money you’ve already spent. Stop throwing good money after bad and get out while you can. Everyone on this thread wants the best for you. But you have to own your end of it. You know this guy doesn’t have a SOUND suitable horse for you and you feel trapped in the “no refund” endless cycle. Cut your losses. If that kills your budget for a new horse, find a good fellow to lease for a while until you can go shopping again. I really want the best for you OP. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but lady, you need a wake up call and your trainer isn’t stepping up as they should.
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