This
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I am hoping you came on here partly to help come to the conclusion that you know in your heart is what you need to do. I hope that by hearing an almost unanimous response, you can do this knowing that you did the right thing, and that no one will judge you for this (and if they do, ask them why they didn’t take the horse right before you tell them to shove it).
Euthanizing a horse is never easy, and especially hard if the horse is otherwise healthy. But like the others said, this horse is not healthy, and he is never going to be happy in a world with humans, and unfortunately if you keep him, he has to interact with humans. So for the safety of yourself, your farrier, your vets, etc, you simply cannot take a risk.
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This! This is what I would do.
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So here is what I read. You use a whip and he gets more aggressive…and he kicks. He went to 4 trainers, not sure what you asked them to do, but I would guess they used a whip and he got more aggressive…my guess.
First off, I’ve posted on this in the past, so I will say again…if you invite a horse to a show of strength you might get it. He’s bigger, stronger, faster and very good at getting his way. Now, if you or any of the trainers you sent him to had the talent and knowledge of someone I know, your horse would be a good boy…most likely…by now. But since the vast majority of us are mere mortals…we have to operate differently.
In in my book, using a whip on an agressive horse…with a history of becoming more agressive…is like throwing gasoline on a fire…don’t do that…ever again. A horse with this explosive tendency needs to be corrected in a way that you don’t invite him to a show of strength…the vast majority of us will lose. I don’t know if you plan on keeping this horse among the living, that is your choice. But since you asked for opinions, and there is really not enough information available to be detailed, I will just say this.
For an agressive horse, I use water in the face via a spray bottle or bucket. They don’t like it, but in my experience, I have been able to quickly end a behavior without an increase in aggression. Water is the best whip to use on an agressive horse… when you are a mere mortal.
When working a horse on the ground, I carry a big golf umbrella…to be opened in the aggressive horses face if they try to charge. Horses are visual creatures…something that suddenly gets big…in front of them…makes you a goddess and makes the horse rethink his strategy.
As for kicking…too many different things could be going on to really comment on this. If you fix his aggression, the kicking may disappear, no way to know.
Not touching the horse with your hand or a whip when issuing a correction is key. Offering a food reward for the desired behavior is also key. You might check into clicker training.
I hope it all works out for you.
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Gosh this is so hard. It is hard to even recommend someone to euthanize a horse. I am sure that even as you think of that, you think of good points that he has and I am sure that he has some.
You do have options and you have tried several already.
It is obvious that you have been trying to give this horse every chance possible. Could there be some trainer out there that could “fix” him, Maybe? More likely not though. After 4 have tried, I think it is safe to safe to say that you gave an honest and good effort to find one that could help him.
Rehominging him is just passing the problem on. Maybe to someone who is not going to be as kind to him and he will end up back in the kill pen.
If you can safely keep him as a pasture pet that is another option. If he can’t even be handled safely on the ground though, that probably isn’t the best option either. It speaks volumes that 2, not just one, but 2 vets have offered to put him down. It kind of makes me think that he can not handled on the ground even.
Even though he is not in physical pain, it definitely sounds like he is in mental pain. He can get over his fear or anger towards humans. He doesn’t fit into the human world.
You gave him food, shelter, care, love, and tried to help him. His last 5 years may have been the best he had, but it isn’t making him better.
I agree with the others than there is nothing wrong with deciding it is time to end his suffering and euthanize him.
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As difficult as it is, I would euthanize at once. Will you feel better about euthanizing AFTER this horse has seriously harmed someone? Better to let him go with dignity under controlled circumstances.
It’s not like this decision is just about you, either. Other people like vets and farriers by necessity must handle a horse for it to be properly cared for. Is it fair to put those people at risk? Sometimes innocent bystanders or even curious children come into contact with animals they aren’t supposed to. How would you feel if a vet, farrier, or curious child were to be injured by this horse?
Being a good animal owner means making the tough decisions. It’s time to let this horse go. If you feel guilt or sadness about his passing, consider rescuing another horse in his memory.
I’m not sure where certain people on this thread learned their horsemanship, but five years, four trainers and two vets is confirmation enough for me. I have kept many horses for decades and I have run into very few aggressive horses. Horses are NOT by nature aggressive animals. Aggression to the degree that you describe is a sign that something is very wrong. I would recommend very strongly against taking the advice of MelissaVanDoren. I think that it would be unethical to put yet another trainer (and their barn staff) at risk asking them to make another attempt given what you know. I would also recommend very strongly against following the advice of Ticker–I can’t find anything in his/her post to agree with. I don’t want to be rude, but those alternative techniques do not sound like good options for a horse with the issues described.
I have dealt with a fair number of moderately aggressive horses, but I’m not going to give handling tips here. You started this thread because you KNOW that the horse is unsafe. You know that the horse is putting you and others at risk. We are here to hold your hand while you do this very difficult thing.
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Very sorry but I would euth.
It’s awful and it’s hard but I promise you will feel relief.
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To be clear, I didn’t give any advice. I simply stated I wished there was more information on which to base the opinion the OP was requesting.
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You are in tough shoes for sure, and even though the solution sounds pretty obvious to those of us on the outside, its obviously one that is hard for you to come to terms with, and I completely understand. Euthanization is permanent and making that decision, regardless of the reasons, is often the hardest thing any of us will ever have to do.
I rescued a dog once that was scheduled to be euthanized. He was a beautiful 7 year old German Shepherd out of back yard lines. His people didn’t really give him the training foundation or the exercise he needed and over time, he became very dog and people aggressive. At their wits end, they decided to put him down.
My husband caught wind of the situation, and by the end of that night, I was the proud new owner of a very troubled dog.
I exhausted my efforts trying to turn him around, but within a few months, saw that they were right. He was unhappy, unpredictable, and dangerous. I’ll spare the details of everything that happened, but in the end, I made a heart-wrenching decision to put him to sleep. It was time, and the right thing to do. When it was done, and I saw his body finally relaxed on the floor, laying over my lap, I realized just how tense he had been every minute of his life and I knew in my heart I had finally been able to give him some peace.
I bring up the story only to illustrate a point that you have to think not only of the safety of yourself and anyone that may come in contact with this horse, but you have to think of him as well. A horse that is truly aggressive and dangerous is also not happy. It sounds like you have given this one more chances than most other people would have, and you have to ask yourself to what end? Even if you are able to “knock the edge off” this horse won’t be safe.
Your options are to support the horse into bitter old age and hope he doesn’t hurt anyone, continue trying to find trainers brave or crazy enough to take him on and pray it works, or to let him go. It is a choice you’ll have to make for yourself, and I feel for you.
If he were mine, I would let him go.
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I’m with Melissa here. I can’t imagine anyone who’s replied hasn’t wondered (in the back of their mind) exactly how, why, where and when does thishorse kick? “Without warning” is pretty vague, as is “Gets more aggressive”.
I’m curious to know: Vicious cow kick or an aiming double barrel? Only in the stall – or does horse come running across turn-out area in planned attack/kick mode…etc. etc. So many scenarios. So many unknowns. What are the other agressive behaviors this horse has – and what exactly brings those on? Use or mere sight of whip?..etc
Also how did vets evaluate this horse for dangerous kicking? What did the vets do and what did the horse actually do – was there any discernable reason/provocation/fear based reaction for the kicking?
As for the ‘trainers’ OP used – same questions.
I’m not quick to order euthanization with such incomplete info. either.
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I also find myself wondering if there is more to the story. I also would not be so quick to jump to euthanasia without more information.
For instance, what sort of vet diagnostics?
What kind of management does this horse have?
All the time we hear how XYZ is uncurable, for a variety of reasons.
We have all heard of the nasty lesson pony/OTTB/WB/whatever that has had a complete turnaround when given turnout, a change in management, upgrade, whatever.
Would make a big difference in my recommendation if, for instance, this horse was stalled 22/7 or saw only a few hrs of turnout a week, than if he was out 24/7 and was actively hunting people down to kick. There’s a big difference between the two: one is probably defensive because of pain, the other probably needs to be euthanized.
And when is he kicking? Is it as simple as him kicking when you are in the stall with him? Is he kicking when he is saddled? I’ve met many horses that were really stall aggressive (race horses) to the point they were “incurable” - when what it really was, was that they were extremely unhappy for a variety of reasons - ulcers, no turnout, high stress/intense workload – fixing their management made the aggressive behavior disappear… and then there are the horses that have had severe metabolic imbalances, or in the case of mares, extreme ovarian cysts… all treatable… but require more than just an eyeball from a vet.
And yeah, what’s the quality of trainers he’s been to? Big difference between Parelleli trainer vs a real trainer vs a fresh-faced YR that just opened her training business.
Too much incomplete info. Even with the “two vets have recommended euth” – I’ve also had vets discuss euth with me and change their mind when they actually put hands on the horse; people cherry-pick info from the vets all the time, and sometimes vets also don’t get the complete picture from owners either.
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Just wanted to say, sound of mind and body. It’s quite possible to have a health body and still be broken mentally.
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Count me as another who would like to know more - but over 5 years with several trainers and, from the sounds of it, several veterinary work-ups, the OP could probably write a novel about what she’s done with/for this horse.
No horse kicks without warning. There is always a warning of some sort, but that’s little comfort knowing a kick from a horse like this could kill you by the time you realized you missed the warning in the first place.
OP, there are many, many nice horses out there in need of homes. It is not this horse’s fault he is how he is, but it is also not anyone’s responsibility to try and take on a dangerous project. Humane euthanasia is a peaceful ending - you save him from a worse fate, now it’s time to lay him to rest.
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Two words… Buck Brannaman. Probably want to look him up if you plan on keeping you both alive. The human failed this creature (not saying you since he had these issues before you got him).
For those who are saying that maybe the OP has managed to pick 5 trainers who are incompetent, and also managed to find 2 vets who are hasty enough to recommend euth without having actually treated the horse with standard levels of care/diagnostics:
If that scenario is true (ETA: I don’t think it is), it would signal that the OP is a very inexperienced horseperson, someone who can’t even recognize trainer or vet expertise. So in that scenario, even if the OP finally lucks into a competent trainer who can correct the behavior, that horse is obviously a hard case and will revert to being dangerous without ongoing expert handling.
If the OP is as inexperienced as this scenario requires, s/he is not going to be able to provide that expert handling, right?
I think we can assume this is an unremarkable horse that doesn’t have a great show record or other talents that’d make him marketable to a serious high-level rider. So he’s not even a good candidate for a giveaway.
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@HungarianHippo that was well put.
@Calzini16 This is not a wayward young horse that needs some direction and proper influence to get back on track, this is an older horse with longstanding, ingrained behavioral issues that present a safety issue to the owner.
I’m going to use my crystal ball here and say that I’m pretty sure that if Mr. Brannaman himself were on this thread he would NOT be making statements about how “humans failed this horse.” We have ZERO idea why this horse is the way he is given his unknown history. I’m also pretty sure that he would not be telling a desperate owner who is concerned for her own safety (and that of others who are asked to handle the horse) to risk herself testing out his techniques.
I don’t know Mr. Brannaman, so I can only guess here. My best guess as to what an experienced person with a lifetime of working with and understanding horses might say might be something like, “You know what, I think it’s okay to let this old guy go. He’s old. His behavior shows that he isn’t happy. In fact, it might be some type of physical or mental suffering that is causing him to be so defensive. Give him a peaceful end.”
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I’m sorry to say it, but I would euthanize as well.
I’ve taken on a ‘problem horse’ of my own, and when I took her on, I was fully committed (and still am) to putting her down if she cannot be turned around. I limit who can work with her to the professionals who deal with her (my vet, farrier, chiropractor, instructor, etc.) I am very forthcoming about her - I told the person who cleans my stalls that under no circumstances is she to clean the mare’s stall with her in it. Specifically, I said, ‘if she hurts you, I’ll put her down. So save both of your lives, and turn her out to clean the stall.’
I consider myself very fortunate that I am seeing progress with my mare, and she has not seriously injured anyone since I first got her a year and half ago.
I’ve been around horses a long time, in a bunch of different types of situations, and I have met some a couple of these types of horses before. They’re rare, but they’re out there, and for people who haven’t met them, they simply don’t understand - this type of horse is inherently dangerous. This is not a training problem, though training may manage them for some length of time. But the truth is, these horses are just ‘broken,’ down in the core of who and what they are. For your own sake, and the sake of the people who need to work with the horse, please consider euthanasia the best option, and do so unapologetically. Mourn his passing, certainly, but please know you made the right choice.
There are plenty of kind horses in the world who need homes, and life is too short to not enjoy your riding time with that type.
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Do you know who Buck Brannaman is?? The horse did not come out of his mom like this so I’d have to say yes, it is humans fault for how he is today. It is a shame because he probably would have been a nice guy if whatever happened to him hadn’t. My suggestion was meant for if she was wanting to give him another chance. Obviously, that was/is what she was considering or she wouldn’t have posted about it.
I am suggesting the horse was born wrong.
Now, whether you want to use an old school phrase like ‘He has a screw loose,’ or you want to guess at some medical reasons, like - a neurological disorder that causes pain but doesn’t present as pain; a problem with how his brain synapses fire causing atypical behavior, a tumor or pituitary problem that causes a hormone imbalance, etc etc etc…
The cost of attempting to find this out for a horse like this, frankly, would be prohibitive for your average horse owner.
OP did right by the horse, she saved him from dying on a slaughterhouse floor. She gave him 5 (presumably at least good-ish) years. She got 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc opinions on him.
His original owners should have never sent him to auction, that was, in my opinion, cruel to the horse and any potential person it came in contact with after.
Based on OP’s description of the horse’s genetics, this is a horse that, for whatever reason, was not ever going to respond to a normal training ‘track’ that brings most of the world’s horses along to a productive life, whatever that may be.
Not to mention, the horse is now older, meaning that behavior has been his go-to reaction for the vast majority of his life.
While I understand the idea that every horse gives the indication it would kick, for those horses that only give a flick of the ear or tail half a second before they strike, that is just semantics to the person who gets hurt.
If he were mine, I would humanely euthanize him, and feel that I did right by him in trying to find the right trainer and vet to diagnose and retrain him, and lucky that he was saved from slaughter and provided him with a humane end. I would consider it unethical to continue asking my farrier, vet, dentist, etc, to keep working around a dangerous horse.
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They’re rare, but in my life as a veterinarian I have met some who were born “not right”. Both dogs and horses. As an intern, I worked on a very well bred warmblood filly who was nasty from the moment she stood. Don’t know what ultimately happened to her. Humane euthanasia is far from the worst thing, but the choice I would make for the OP’s horse
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