Looking for advice on what to do with aggressive horse

[Denali6298]

@Calzini16

Do you know who Buck Brannaman is?? The horse did not come out of his mom like this so I’d have to say yes, it is humans fault for how he is today. It is a shame because he probably would have been a nice guy if whatever happened to him hadn’t. My suggestion was meant for if she was wanting to give him another chance. Obviously, that was/is what she was considering or she wouldn’t have posted about it.

I’m pretty sure she does. I had a horse like this. I wouldn’t say humans failed him. He was down right mean and aggressive. His track owners and trainers found a program that was really over the top but worked for this horse. Not everyone is up to the task of dealing with this type of horse. I was a brave (maybe stupid) teenager who wouldn’t give up on him due to the circumstances in which I got him. My vet, I’m sure, totally disagreed with my wanting to keep him, but he was more than happy to help with things that caused this horse to get extremely aggressive and dangerous. My vet also said he was one special horse. He liked him.

Well after seven years of dodging teeth and hooves, a million training meathods we reached an agreement. Not everyone has the time, money, or desire to do that. There is nothing wrong with that. Also, after talking to the breeder and owners of my old horse, it wasn’t humans. It was him. You didn’t respond to this horse with discipline in the form a whip. He would lash out and you would lose. It was just him. Would I deal with that now? Nope. I have too much to lose. I’m in the euth camp if the OP has run out of time and resources.

I wanted to add too, that this particular horse was picky about people. Mostly he was fine but on occasion he met some he didn’t like. One day a new worker (after being told not to) decided he would go into his paddock to toss hay. My horse saw him in his space, started snaking like a stallion and charged him teeth bared.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

While I’m also in the camp of “we don’t have enough information,” I’ve also known a dangerous horse. I would happily have put a bullet in that horse’s head. But he didn’t belong to me, and the owner couldn’t see him for what he was. OP, you have the honesty to admit he’s dangerous, and you should be commended for that, as well as for everything you’ve done and tried to do.

The horse I’m talking about had zero respect for humans or other horses. I knew both of his parents; his sire was a saint, his mother nice, if not very personable. This horse’s issues were from how he was handled. He, too, had several trainers. He could be ridden - carefully. But none of that stopped him from running me over twice, without provocation, or from killing one of his pasture-mates. In short, he was too big, and the behavior was too ingrained, to be able to be around him safely.

Could there be a trainer who could work with him? Maybe. Is it possible that the other trainers haven’t been right for him? Of course. I live in an area where most ‘trainers’ don’t understand saddle fit. I totally believe that all five of your trainers could have been incompetent to deal with your horse. BUT. The question is, CAN it be fixed? And if so, can you afford to do it? And are you willing to risk someone’s safety to do it?

It sounds like you have spent the past years attempting to fix this horse, at a pretty big cost to you - mentally and financially. How much more of yourself are you willing to invest in a horse that may never be safe? Do you get any pleasure at all from owning him? Is there ever a moment you can relax around him? Do you think there ever will be? If not . . . I think it’s time to let him go, knowing in your heart you gave him every chance possible.

[Synthesis]

@Calzini16

Do you know who Buck Brannaman is?? The horse did not come out of his mom like this so I’d have to say yes, it is humans fault for how he is today. It is a shame because he probably would have been a nice guy if whatever happened to him hadn’t. My suggestion was meant for if she was wanting to give him another chance. Obviously, that was/is what she was considering or she wouldn’t have posted about it.

I sure know who Buck Brannaman is. I actually watched his documentary, yesterday.

Buck Brannaman might say that humans failed the horse, but NOT THE HUMAN WHO HAS HIM NOW. There was a truly dangerous horse in that documentary, one that Buck called ‘as close as a horse could get to being a predator’. The fundamental differences between the OP’s description and the one in the documentary?

• OP’s attacks from the hind end, the one in Buck attacked from the front end (that one hurt Buck’s rider pretty badly too)
• OP’s horse is an adult, the one in Buck was around 4. OP’s horse’s behavior is significantly more ingrained now
  -OP’s horse is a gelding, the one in Buck was a stud. And OP’s horse is still nearly as unpredictable.

Buck loaded that horse on the trailer himself for it to be euthanized.

OP,
Bless you for all you’ve tried. Horses are too big, fast and powerful for such behavior. You’ve done more than most, give him a peaceful end. For your sake, his and all who might have to handle him in the future.

[HereComesZach]

@Synthesis

Buck loaded that horse on the trailer himself for it to be euthanized…

Yes, most any trainer worth their salt who is called in for these types will run across a handful in their careers that simply cannot be rehabilitated.

[WildLittleWren]

Some horses can’t be rehabilitated and euthanasia is the kindest (and safest) option. Hugs to the OP sounds like she has done everything possible for this horse and has gone above and beyond for him.

[Garnet_Z]

I think I would have to euthanize the horse in this situation too. It’s not something I would do lightly, but while I might feel bad about euthanizing a horse, I’d feel much worse if a horse of mine hurt or killed a person, especially if I knew that the horse was dangerous. It sounds like you’ve gone through a lot to try to deal with this behaviour, so I don’t think you need to feel bad or guilty.

[Incesubtern]

I have been experiencing the same issue. Hope I can find more specific answer. I’ve been taming my horse for long time but he is still really aggressive.

[SuzieQNutter]

On autopsy you might find a brain tumour. They cause aggressive horses, even from ones that were not aggressive before.

[OneTwoMany]

@Ticker

For an agressive horse, I use water in the face via a spray bottle or bucket. They don’t like it, but in my experience, I have been able to quickly end a behavior without an increase in aggression. Water is the best whip to use on an agressive horse… when you are a mere mortal.

When working a horse on the ground, I carry a big golf umbrella…to be opened in the aggressive horses face if they try to charge. Horses are visual creatures…something that suddenly gets big…in front of them…makes you a goddess and makes the horse rethink his strategy.

Yikes! I sincerely hope no one tries this at home with an aggressive horse.

[BeeHoney]

@OneTwoMany , agreed. I don’t want to be disrespectful to a poster who was trying to be helpful, but those suggestions are not good advice and I also sincerely hope that no one uses those techniques.

No sane person, and especially no respectable trainer (famous NH trainer or not) would recommend to an owner with a dangerous horse that they just need to experiment with some more training techniques. The options are more along the line of euthanasia vs. a professional trainer.

IMO (and others may feel differently) I care about people as well as horses. If a horse is young and healthy and there seems to be a good chance that the horse can be rehabilitated to a productive life (or for an older horse, safely managed) without anyone getting hurt, then I think it is reasonable to choose capable professionals to do that. Otherwise, it seems incredibly selfish to risk the welfare of handlers, trainers, vets, farriers and barn workers so that the owner doesn’t have to “feel bad about giving up.”

@SuzieQNutter , I have known several instances where horses with dangerous/unusual behavioral issues were discovered at the end (or near the end) to have serious physical issues. One horse had a fracture in his neck. Another horse had a brain aneurysm. Another horse with a history of colic surgery had multiple adhesions partially strangling his bowel–the vet felt that he had probably had chronic pain for a long time. Another horse we never found out what the problem was, but we did find out that the horse had left at least one person permanently disabled in his wake and that guided our decision making.

Horses cannot speak, and there are MANY serious physical issues that fall outside of a thorough veterinary exam. It’s not a big deal for a human to go and have a CT scan or an MRI, but doing advanced imaging of horses is for the most part extremely complex and incredibly expensive due to their size. In many cases, an expensive veterinary workup isn’t worth it because for many complex problems the treatment options are limited or non-existent. Let’s say you find a brain aneurysm or a brain tumor–what next?

To top it off, a difficult or dangerous horse is a poor candidate for surgery and hospitalization. These horses are more unhappy and more stressed, more difficult to handle, and sending them in for care is putting more and more people at risk. Lastly, I think that the success rates in most instances are very low when you start with a horse that has been having problems for years.

[RockstarPony]

@BeeHoney

@SuzieQNutter , I have known several instances where horses with dangerous/unusual behavioral issues were discovered at the end (or near the end) to have serious physical issues. One horse had a fracture in his neck. Another horse had a brain aneurysm. Another horse with a history of colic surgery had multiple adhesions partially strangling his bowel–the vet felt that he had probably had chronic pain for a long time. Another horse we never found out what the problem was, but we did find out that the horse had left at least one person permanently disabled in his wake and that guided our decision making.

Horses cannot speak, and there are MANY serious physical issues that fall outside of a thorough veterinary exam. It’s not a big deal for a human to go and have a CT scan or an MRI, but doing advanced imaging of horses is for the most part extremely complex and incredibly expensive due to their size. In many cases, an expensive veterinary workup isn’t worth it because for many complex problems the treatment options are limited or non-existent. Let’s say you find a brain aneurysm or a brain tumor–what next?

Ditto - was just coming down here to say this. Out of the genuinely dangerous horses I’ve handled, I think 9 out of 10 eventually turned out to have either neurological issues or chronic pain that the vets didn’t catch for years. (And we have GOOD vets - it turns out it’s very easy to miss even major issues, especially when the main symptom is “well she just wakes up mad as hell every day and we don’t know why.”) In retrospect, a lot of them were probably very kind horses who were just trying to tell us that they were unbelievably miserable.

I think as humans we really want to have the emotional security of pinpointing what exactly is wrong & having a scientific explanation before we make a decision, but honestly, I’ve almost always ended up regretting that we ignored what the horse was telling us for months and months and months while we tried to find an official prognosis. I’ve known so many who were just blatantly miserable from the day we got them, and their messages so often got ignored day after day while someone tried to dig up a solution to something that wasn’t solveable. I think in a lot of cases, the best thing you can do for them is just listen to what they’re telling you from the get go.

Out of the cases like this that I’ve known, I can think of maybe two horses that ever turned around in any meaningful way, and one of those was a 6 month old that just needed some help through the toddler stage. I think at least 50% ended up getting euthanized within a few years just because of how catastrophic the physical issues turned out to be. The rest, as their best case scenario, ended up as the type that could be more-or-less managed by a full-time program with a professional trainer and a good vet team, but are basically unsellable to any kind of amateur & have literally no back up plan if the owner runs out of money or otherwise stops paying for their lifestyle. I’ve known a number of those and really loved some of them, but I honestly always wonder whether it’s really fair to drag a horse through years of vet visits & chronic issues & intensive training just so they can get to a position that’s fundamentally pretty risky.

[Sswor]

I think this culture of–every horse can be saved–is doing a massive disservice to horses in general. They can’t all be saved and there are millions that are unwanted. All this time and resources wasted on difficult, dangerous, common/random bred horses, when there are a million gathering dust and flies that could be put into service and be useful is ridiculous. You know there are at any given time, 60K mustangs standing in holding facilities all across this country doing nothing but eating tax payer money every day, and languishing, that could be put into service. And 10’s of thousands of domestics doing nothing as well. They are large livestock animals. It costs a tremendous amount of time and money to own a horse. It’s the same investment to own a good one as it is to own a problem one. There are fates worse then death, and many fates worse then humane euthanasia. Training is stressful and subjecting a horse like described to constant training by a rotating group of trainers is not kind. Let the horse be at peace and move on.

[Beck]

@SuzieQNutter

On autopsy you might find a brain tumour. They cause aggressive horses, even from ones that were not aggressive before.

Agreed. I had one that became increasingly unpredictable and dangerous over time. When it got to where she started losing control and hurt herself and it was risky just being around her, she was euthanised. Vet said it was almost certain she had a lesion of some sort on her brain.

[Ticker]

@OneTwoMany

Yikes! I sincerely hope no one tries this at home with an aggressive horse.

There are a lot of people who are against using water and or an umbrella against an agressive horse that have no idea why it is so effective and works…but they ‘sincerely’ dislike it. It’s obvious that many people have never tried these techniques, but mostly because they’ve never heard of it or know of anyone who has.
It’s all good to be afraid/against/ something you don’t understand when you have clearly never tried the techniques. However…not one other poster has offered any thoughts on handling an agressive horse other than one who agreed with my post that it’s a bad idea to use a whip. Why, I ask?..because they don’t have any or know of any strategies that work…or at least don’t involve a whip. That’s fine too…that’s why we share information.

Some posters have pointed out the complete lack of questions by other posters trying to get more info before they recommend euthanasia. Yikes…indeed. I don’t know what the OP is going to decide…but I do know, that the next time the OP or someone else who reads these posts…has a horse that is getting aggressive or is aggressive…that maybe…they might try something different before it escalates into truly dangerous. That’s what sharing information is about.

So, for those who are actually interested in why water in the face works…I will explain and offer an experiment you can try at home to see for yourself. That way, you can make a more informed decision on whether you want to put this tool in your equine tool box.

Water…sprayed in the face…causes a reflex in horses, humans and most mammals . This reflex involves closing the eyes, blinking, holding your breath and turning your head away. You and your horse can be sprayed on any part of the body and continue doing a task, but as soon as the water is sprayed in the face, it becomes extremely difficult to overcome those reflexes…almost as powerful to overcome as sneeze with your eyes open which cannot be done.

Try this at home… get a spray bottle filled with water and have a friend or familly member spray you while you stand on one foot or tap the top of your head. Try to continue tapping your head or standing on one leg while you are being sprayed in the face…horses don’t have hands so you are not allowed to block the spray.

Notice how long it takes before you start blinking or close your eyes or turn your head away. Your horse will display the same reflexes and become completely distracted and unable to complete what they were doing… namely…the behavior you want stopped. Not convinced? The vast majority of horse people have already experienced this with their horse(s) when giving them a bath with a hose and sprayer…their horses generally don’t mind spraying anywhere on their bodies…except their face…they close their eyes…they blink…they turn their heads. …they pull away if you persist.

We have all witnessed these reactions but only some of us have learned to use this reaction. For the record, I am not the only one who uses this technique on horses…do a little research. Then…There are also many people who zap the kitty with water to get them to stop clawing the furniture…and then the dog when he goes to chase said naughty kitty as it runs away. The point being that it is not such an uncommon strategy to stop unwanted behavior after all.

Water in the face causes a very powerful reflex that is extremely difficult if not impossible to ignore. Think about it…countries have written laws banning interrogations that involve enhanced water in the face techniques…called water boarding. Ponder that for a moment…

Now that you realize that water in the face has a long, well known history…that you never really thought about…no we are not going to torture our horse with this technique. So, when an agressive horse starts their bully routine…I spray them in the face because I know how powerful their reflexes are to turn their heads and close their eyes…it breaks their routine. It is very hard to stand on your hind legs or start a rear while being sprayed in the face. It is very difficult to do anything at all.

A word about whips. Horses have thousands of years of evolution and dna memory that tells them to strike, bite , kick or run away in self defense. Male horses, in particular, spend a good deal of time fighting with each other as their anscestors did. When you strike a horse with a whip some horses will strike back and may escalate if they are successful. They quickly learn to continue striking back…these horses are usually male and the more dominant ones…and some bloodlines are known for these tougher horses… These are the ones that can become truly dangerous if you don’t stop the routine. While horses have thousands of years of preprogrammed responses to a strike…such as a whip or your hand…they have no preprogrammed response to water spray in the face…which is why they are not likely to strike back when you hit them with water. I have never had a horse strike me back after water in the face but every one did stop their unwanted ,nasty or dangerous behavior almost immediately.

So whatever anyone decides to do or not do…with even a mildly agressive horse…it’s up to the individual to decide. I make no recommendations …only state what I have done that has worked for me.

I posted my primary go to strategy…it’s one tool in my tool box…which I use mostly on young stallions and pushy geldings that have to be reminded not to be a bully. I also always carry a whip…I just know when to not use it…and why.

[Dressagerider678]

So this is coming from some one who owns an aggressive horse, my young horse, he is half Friesian half andalusian, he came from a charo place, at the time I did not know how badly abused he was, I gelded him the day I bought him, and he was really great for the first 3 weeks I owned him, then everything took a turn for the worse. First came the charging while lunging, then came the biting, then the rearing, striking, kicking, and it got to the point where he would be rearing while I would be trying to put a halter on him, took me 2 hours to get on dodging hooves and teeth. I sent him up to Allen Clarke, who worked a miracle with him, within a week the horse who was completely unmanageable became a complete saint. This horse was very abused before I got him, about a year after purchase we found a video of his owner, he tied them down three ways to sunday, had one guy at the haunches with a cattle prod zapping the horse every time they would stop “dancing” two guys on either side hitting the legs with whatever they could find, whips or even tree branches. I would send him to a trainer before putting him down, if all fails, of course put him down, I would put mine down before ever selling him to someone I didn’t know just to keep them safe, he has become manageable with 2 years of hard work and professional help. best of luck!

[Denali6298]

@Ticker I get what you saying but without seeing the horse and the OP I am not comfortable giving advice. I NEVER used a whip with my boy. That would be a death wish. I also wouldn’t feel comfortable dodging hooves carrying an umbrella and/or water bucket.

[Ticker]

@Denali6298

@Ticker I get what you saying but without seeing the horse and the OP I am not comfortable giving advice. I NEVER used a whip with my boy. That would be a death wish. I also wouldn’t feel comfortable dodging hooves carrying an umbrella and/or water bucket.

Good point. I never carried the umbrella, but held it in my left hand with my lunge whip in my right…while free lunging. I used it for self defense in case the stallion charged me. One stallion only charged me twice…the first time when I didn’t have the umbrella and the last time when I opened it in his face. I eventually incorporated it into my longing routine. Did you know…that there is a medical term for what happens when your arches become painful that a primary cause is running in deep sand? Don’t remember what it’s called, but when you are free lunging and can’t risk running too much in the arena, that umbrella sure comes in handy for getting junior to move and circle you.

I didn’t go into detail about how the umbrella opening impacts the horses vision and sends him into flight mode. I left my umbrella in the indoor or the outdoor arena ahead of time.

I primarily carried a spray bottle in my left hand with my whip…which I used when moving my stallion(s) from the barn to wherever they needed to go. I had a friend throw a partially filled bucket for me that got things working in the right direction.

I agree that there is no way to know much about anyone’s ability to do anything. Everyone has to make their own decisions and decide what they are comfortable with.

[Sswor]

@Ticker fantastic stuff, thanks for posting, friend. I learned something from reading your posts and that makes today a good day.

[WildLittleWren]

@Sswor

I think this culture of–every horse can be saved–is doing a massive disservice to horses in general. They can’t all be saved and there are millions that are unwanted. All this time and resources wasted on difficult, dangerous, common/random bred horses, when there are a million gathering dust and flies that could be put into service and be useful is ridiculous. You know there are at any given time, 60K mustangs standing in holding facilities all across this country doing nothing but eating tax payer money every day, and languishing, that could be put into service. And 10’s of thousands of domestics doing nothing as well. They are large livestock animals. It costs a tremendous amount of time and money to own a horse. It’s the same investment to own a good one as it is to own a problem one. There are fates worse then death, and many fates worse then humane euthanasia. Training is stressful and subjecting a horse like described to constant training by a rotating group of trainers is not kind. Let the horse be at peace and move on.

Yes, this! I have one of those 60k plus BLM mustang’s and she is best, most loyal horse I have ever owned. OP any updates on what you have decided to do?

[alibi_18]

@Ticker

Good point. I never carried the umbrella, but held it in my left hand with my lunge whip in my right…while free lunging. I used it for self defense in case the stallion charged me. One stallion only charged me twice…the first time when I didn’t have the umbrella and the last time when I opened it in his face. I eventually incorporated it into my longing routine. Did you know…that there is a medical term for what happens when your arches become painful that a primary cause is running in deep sand? Don’t remember what it’s called, but when you are free lunging and can’t risk running too much in the arena, that umbrella sure comes in handy for getting junior to move and circle you.

I didn’t go into detail about how the umbrella opening impacts the horses vision and sends him into flight mode. I left my umbrella in the indoor or the outdoor arena ahead of time.

I primarily carried a spray bottle in my left hand with my whip…which I used when moving my stallion(s) from the barn to wherever they needed to go. I had a friend throw a partially filled bucket for me that got things working in the right direction.

I agree that there is no way to know much about anyone’s ability to do anything. Everyone has to make their own decisions and decide what they are comfortable with.

Little tricks like that are dangerous. They might seem to work for a while, but really, they’re just that, little tricks.

And people « finding » them seem to think they are great trainers while in reality, they are just using little tricks.

This is NOT how you train, rehab or control horses; even less ones with bad behavioral problems.

Also, I don’t want my horses to be scared of umbrellas opening in their face or think they are being punished if water is sprayed in their face…

NB: the spraying of water has nothing to do with any form of torture using water.