Looking for advice on what to do with aggressive horse

[Denali6298]

@alibi_18

Little tricks like that are dangerous. They might seem to work for a while, but really, they’re just that, little tricks.

And people « finding » them seem to think they are great trainers while in reality, they are just using little tricks.

This is NOT how you train, rehab or control horses; even less ones with bad behavioral problems.

Also, I don’t want my horses to be scared of umbrellas opening in their face or think they are being punished if water is sprayed in their face…

NB: the spraying of water has nothing to do with any form of torture using water.

This… so much this! @Ticker your methods as described would never work for me and my horse. At 16 I would have said yeah no. I had time to spend and time I did. My end result was an amazing horse who learned to work with people without throwing buckets of water at him or opening an umbrella in his face. Also when I said I didn’t use a whip on him I didn’t even hold one.

[OneTwoMany]

@Ticker

There are a lot of people who are against using water and or an umbrella against an agressive horse that have no idea why it is so effective and works…but they ‘sincerely’ dislike it. It’s obvious that many people have never tried these techniques, but mostly because they’ve never heard of it or know of anyone who has. It’s all good to be afraid/against/ something you don’t understand when you have clearly never tried the techniques.

I’m sorry, but I have to disagree with this advice. Completely. If the horse is as aggressive as the OP states, it could be dangerous for her to start opening umbrellas around the horse. Or squirting him in the face with water. OP has made it clear the horse doesn’t respond in a traditional fashion. And she has gone to the ends of the earth to help him. She is seeking “permission” to explore euthanasia. And unless one of us is willing to take on the horse ourselves, we should be supportive of the only logical decision available to her.

My concern is that some well meaning individual could read this thread and decide that it is a good idea to carry an umbrella into their horse’s stall, open it, and subsequently be seriously injured after the horse freaks out.

[Ticker]

@alibi_18

Little tricks like that are dangerous. They might seem to work for a while, but really, they’re just that, little tricks.

And people « finding » them seem to think they are great trainers while in reality, they are just using little tricks.

This is NOT how you train, rehab or control horses; even less ones with bad behavioral problems.

Also, I don’t want my horses to be scared of umbrellas opening in their face or think they are being punished if water is sprayed in their face…

NB: the spraying of water has nothing to do with any form of torture using water.

I’ve read similar arguments against feeding food rewards …that’s it is just tricks and bribery which is dangerous and does not work. …I’ve read it all before. It’s all good…

[Jumperwannabe]

I purchased a horse with known behavioral issues. We felt he was not aggressive but due to poor handling (or none at all) for the 2 years prior, he had turned into a disrespectful sh@!. Nipping, tail swishing, light cow kicking. It was a gamble but we limited contact to 2 people, myself and the BO. And with love, consistency and a firm hand, he turned a corner. But we know the signs and he still will test boundaries to no avail. But there is a big difference between an aggressive horse and a disrespectful one.

[BeeHoney]

Per the OP, the OP’s horse is a dangerous kicker who does not behave or respond normally. The horse may have a neurologic issue, a pain issue, or a fear issue. I think that using umbrellas and squirted water would be more likely to intensify this horse’s problem or even create a dangerous situation. Even in a normal horse, kicking out is an instinctive, very predictable response to a startling stimulus, so I cannot picture how one could use an umbrella or squirted water effectively on a kicker. An umbrella or squirted water might turn a horse’s face from you, but also would be exactly the kind of thing to encourage a kicker to turn and kick. In fact, startling a horse with an umbrella or spray of water would be a great way to get even a very well mannered horse to kick you.

FWIW, I also disagree with those ideas for biting/frontal aggression. I’ve handled truly aggressive horses, and the water “reflex” Ticker describes is not some overriding thing that will stop a horse that is truly in attack mode. I don’t think that replacing–or combining–aggression with fear is a good idea either. I absolutely can see how an umbrella would could startle and stop a horse in it’s tracks, but I see that as a one time desperate measure type of maneuver. When we handle tough horses we use a very different set of tools–we absolutely don’t want horses startling from their handlers–startled, fearful horses can be just as (or more) dangerous than aggressive horses.

In any case, the OP didn’t come here for handling suggestions. She was pretty up front that she has exhausted her options to rehabilitate this horse and is now trying to figure out what to do with the horse. The only real option that I see is euthanasia, and I think the OP knows that, but I also think that it is pretty normal to need some help processing to come to that decision. It’s a lot of guilt to feel like you have failed a horse (or another animal) when you are a horse lover who started on your path with the best of intentions. I have felt that way before. Now that I’m older, I see the bigger picture–that horses that aren’t acting right are often suffering. That there are things worse than euthanasia–like not euthanizing and a person suffers a devastating injury as a result.

[Ticker]

Bee honey…I’m glad to see you are breaking the problem down and analyzing the pros and cons.

I like your your statement about not thinking that combining aggression with fear is a good idea. …it begs the question what do you think you should combine aggression with? If a horse is charging me…I really do want him afraid to complete that charge. …I also don’t want to touch him or hurt him in any way.

My horses don’t fear a spray in the face and have not noticed horses becoming fearful when they are hosed down. I’m not sure why you would think that would be a logical response to water. Do you have horses that are frightened by water?

I did notice that in your earlier post you had worked with ‘moderately’ aggressive horses and in your latest post they were ‘very’ aggressive. It seems your experience involves horses that are more aggressive now. Do any of your strategies ‘not’ include a whip…or worse?

I re-read the Original post…The OP was very clear that using a whip was a bad idea…advice was welcome…euthanasia was on the table. I feel bad for the OP…tough decision.

[alibi_18]

@Ticker

I’ve read similar arguments against feeding food rewards …that’s it is just tricks and bribery which is dangerous and does not work. …I’ve read it all before. It’s all good…

I don’t reward with food either.

Like I said, it does work… for a time.

And there is a big difference in how to use, and what result you may get, between negative reinforcement, negative punisment, positive reinforcement and positive punishment.

I’ve trained and retrained enough horses to know that tricks only work for a while and usually do not address the root of the problem.

[Ticker]

@Denali6298

This… so much this! @Ticker your methods as described would never work for me and my horse. At 16 I would have said yeah no. I had time to spend and time I did. My end result was an amazing horse who learned to work with people without throwing buckets of water at him or opening an umbrella in his face. Also when I said I didn’t use a whip on him I didn’t even hold one.

I think it’s wonderful that you were able to solve your training problem without a whip!

I certainly don’t think that the strategies that I use are the only ones. I do believe that whatever strategy is decided upon…on a truly aggressive horse…it should not involve a whip…or worse.

[Ticker]

@alibi_18

I don’t reward with food either.

Like I said, it does work… for a time.

And there is a big difference in how to use, and what result you may get, between negative reinforcement, negative punisment, positive reinforcement and positive punishment.

I’ve trained and retrained enough horses to know that tricks only work for a while and usually do not address the root of the problem.

ok, I’m glad you are happy with your training program. I’ve been training with positive reinforcement for decades …still works for me…not sure when the ‘trick’ is suppose to wear off.

Have you visited a reputable zoo lately?..the ones in my area seem to think that food rewards are a necessity not a trick. I’ll have to let them know they are fooling themselves.

[Sswor]

Brilliant, Ticker, just brilliant.

[alibi_18]

@Ticker

ok, I’m glad you are happy with your training program. I’ve been training with positive reinforcement for decades …still works for me…not sure when the ‘trick’ is suppose to wear off.

The tricks wear off when your pockets are empty of treats…

Positive reinforcement doesn’t have to be food or gimmicks.

Have you visited a reputable zoo lately?..the ones in my area seem to think that food rewards are a necessity not a trick. I’ll have to let them know they are fooling themselves.

Unless you are talking about a circus, food rewards are not meant to « train » the wild animals to perform anything.
FYI, I don’t like zoos either unless the animals are kept in an as wild as possible enclosure where people can’t disturb them and have minimal interaction with humans. My vet works also for a Safari Parc nearby. I much prefer that. When he needs to check them, the animals are humanely contained - drugged appropriately.

We are talking about horses here, not tigers or monkeys which command very different approches.

Or maybe you should tell the zoo keepers in your area to try spraying water in the face of naughty tigers! :winkgrin:

Don’t worry, this is my last post on the subject as I don’t want to derail too much the original purpose of this thread.

If the OP, after 5 yrs of trying, haven’t found a solution, there isn’t much we, CotHers, can do.
It’s easy to pretend having « the » solution.
And if something happen, who will stand up to take the blame?

Euthanizing is the best solution.

[ABitDrafty]

@Melissa.Van Doren

Perhaps “give up” was the wrong phrase, and certainly not meant to hurt the OPs feelings. It’s clear the OP has invested time and money and thought. And as I said, I’m not opposed to euthanization. But I’m sure each of us can think of 5 trainers who would be useless in this situation. Nothing was said about the qualifications of the trainers, the duration of training, the type of training, over those five years. If the horse has been in training for most of those years with 5 different qualified trainers? Or if the horse was evaluated by 5 different “trainers” for brief periods amounting to not much time at all during those years? Different scenarios. The vet opinions do carry weight, especially, as previously noted by another poster, since IME vets are often reluctant to euthanize a healthy horse. But are they equine vets? Or general livestock vets?

Again, I’d feel better making a recommendation if I had more info.

I’m in the “needs more info” camp too. I’ve seen too many trainers that were at best mediocre dub a horse as unfixable after only a week or two and seen too many hurried vets that didn’t question a crappy trainer about their judgement regarding behavioral issues.

One trainer that is now a resident low-level dressage instructor at a show barn quit on a mare I know and deemed her a hopeless nutcase. She even flipped over lunging once with him. Owner thankfully didn’t listen and found a new trainer and it was like night and day. Years later the mare is still doing amazing and can even give beginner lessons.

I’m definitely not against euth in aggressive horse cases, I just prefer knowing the nitty gritty before slamming down my gavel in serious cases like this.

[demidq]

Hi OP- wondering if this discussion has helped you in any way?

[newhorsemommy]

I haven’t read all the responses and I’m not necessarily suggesting this as a course of action for this particular horse, but… My gelding gets weekly estrone sulfate injections for a sticky stifle. His arthritis precludes building up enough muscle to discontinue the injections. Since starting him on it, he has become much less spooky than he used to be. I’ve either read or been told (I can’t remember which) that it is sometimes given to aggressive stallions to improve their demeanor I’m just wondering if anyone has any experience with that and if it could work in a situation like this, assuming of course, the OP would want to keep said horse if the aggression could be resolved in such a manner. I also assume the horse in question has been gelded already? I have no issues with euthanasia in a situation like this, just wondering if this could be an alternative in some situations.

[sdlbredfan]

@SuzieQNutter

On autopsy you might find a brain tumour. They cause aggressive horses, even from ones that were not aggressive before.

I actually knew of a case like this way back in the 1960’s. A horse that had been mannerly suddenly became aggressive, kicking, biting, charging etc. He was immediately euth’d and necropsied, because the very knowledgeable trainer knew that this was likely physical, not behavioral. The gelding had a brain tumor. The pain must have been excruciating, so this definitely was a kindness, to put him out of his misery.
I wish more people could realize that euithanasia is sometimes not only necessary, but the kindest thing to do. In reading threads like this on the forum, I am reminded that there still are people with a misguided opinion that euthanasia is ‘bad’. Just remember, with an aggressive horse, it is better to have a dead horse than a dead human because some human was too spineless to make that decision.

[Fourbeats]

Euthanize him. Life is too short to deal with dangerous horses, I don’t care what the excuse is. You gave him much longer than many of us would have. Spend a day feeding him his favorite foods and then let him go.

[Calzini16]

@Synthesis

I sure know who Buck Brannaman is. I actually watched his documentary, yesterday.

Buck Brannaman might say that humans failed the horse, but NOT THE HUMAN WHO HAS HIM NOW. There was a truly dangerous horse in that documentary, one that Buck called ‘as close as a horse could get to being a predator’. The fundamental differences between the OP’s description and the one in the documentary?

• OP’s attacks from the hind end, the one in Buck attacked from the front end (that one hurt Buck’s rider pretty badly too)
• OP’s horse is an adult, the one in Buck was around 4. OP’s horse’s behavior is significantly more ingrained now
  -OP’s horse is a gelding, the one in Buck was a stud. And OP’s horse is still nearly as unpredictable.

Buck loaded that horse on the trailer himself for it to be euthanized.

OP,
Bless you for all you’ve tried. Horses are too big, fast and powerful for such behavior. You’ve done more than most, give him a peaceful end. For your sake, his and all who might have to handle him in the future.

Not sure you read my original response but I did mention that it is the previous owners fault… not the fault of OP. And yes, there are major differences between that colt and the OP’s horse. I never said there was anything similar between the two. There are HUGE differences between the two, actually.

[WildLittleWren]

I think the OP is gone…

[SuzieQNutter]

@sdlbredfan

I actually knew of a case like this way back in the 1960’s. A horse that had been mannerly suddenly became aggressive, kicking, biting, charging etc. He was immediately euth’d and necropsied, because the very knowledgeable trainer knew that this was likely physical, not behavioral. The gelding had a brain tumor. The pain must have been excruciating, so this definitely was a kindness, to put him out of his misery.
I wish more people could realize that euithanasia is sometimes not only necessary, but the kindest thing to do. In reading threads like this on the forum, I am reminded that there still are people with a misguided opinion that euthanasia is ‘bad’. Just remember, with an aggressive horse, it is better to have a dead horse than a dead human because some human was too spineless to make that decision.

I have never thought of it as pain. I have thought of the tumour as changing the demeanor because of changing the brain.

An episode on Greys Anatomy where the brain surgeon had to get a tumour removed. It became a case of life with the tumour and then life without the tumour as all decisions were affected. even who She married. She was not aware of the tumour as she could not feel it.

[sdlbredfan]

@SuzieQNutter

I have never thought of it as pain. I have thought of the tumour as changing the demeanor because of changing the brain.

An episode on Greys Anatomy where the brain surgeon had to get a tumour removed. It became a case of life with the tumour and then life without the tumour as all decisions were affected. even who She married. She was not aware of the tumour as she could not feel it.

Brain tumor, a growth in a tightly contained space certainly would cause an excruciating headache. So, yes, definitely any tumor can cause pain, depending on where it is. That is not the same as saying that ‘all tumors cause pain’, as the example you shared said that one did not.