Looking for advice

[rezzy012]

I am looking for some high level advice. A family member who jumps horses was killed in an accident (the horse tripped). From what I understand, it was not a cheap horse when bought. No one else in the family is involved in the sport or knows much about horses. We are trying to make sense of what to do from here. My immediate questions are:

(a) would such a horse be resellable? Or this a “jinx” of some kind?
(b) any recommendations for someone to help the estate move the horse?

In case anyone is to suggest the current barn, not knowing anything ourselves we are looking for a second opinion. Thank you for any help.

[Mander]

I’m so sorry for your loss.

I would imagine the horse would still be sellable, especially since the accident was not caused by dangerous behavior from the horse (such as rearing or bucking). The horse market is quite high right now too, which means you’ll likely be able to sell the horse for more than they bought it for.

It sounds like the horse was boarded somewhere, so I would start there. Was your family member taking lessons or working with a trainer? They would honestly be the best place to start, as many horses are sold word of mouth, and the trainer is going to know the horse better than some random person you brought in to sell them. Horses aren’t “cookie cutter”, and even though on paper two horses might look exactly the same, they are not necessarily suitable for the same types of riders, so having someone who is very familiar with the horse is ideal. The trainer will also be knowledgable about things like how the horse is typically shod, if they need any particular supplements to keep them happy, if they’re hard to fit a saddle to, etc. Just expect to pay a commission to the trainer.

If you don’t want the barn owner/trainer to sell the horse for you, then I would at least ask them several questions, just to know what you’ve got on your hands. You could even post the answers here, and we could give you an idea of what a horse like that should sell for, assuming there are no other serious red flags. The area the horse is located in will also affect price, so include that if you can.

At the very least, the info I’d want to know initially about the horse is:
Breed
Age
Height
Sex
What’s the horse’s training level?
How high was the horse jumping with your family member?
What is the horse’s temperament, both in the barn and under saddle?
Is the horse amateur friendly?
Was your family member showing the horse regularly? If so, was it at “local shows” or “rated shows”? (you can use those exact phrases - the trainer ought to know what you mean. If they don’t… maybe sell the horse yourself )
How sound is the horse?

Some horsey descriptors you might hear are “kick ride”, “push ride”, “forward ride”, “has scope” or just “scopey”, “suited for the hunter ring/jumper ring/equitation ring” (or just “eq ring”), “three-ring horse”. Just take note of them, and we can help translate for you

[2bayboys]

Not knowing the details, but horses trip for any number of reasons. Knowledgeable horse people would look at the factors surrounding this tragic accident and draw their own conclusions about the horse’s culpability.

I’m very sorry for the loss of your loved one.

Assuming this “expensive” horse is in a trainer’s barn, the simplest thing is to let the trainer market the horse for sale, as he/she will best know its value and suitability for potential buyers.

[rezzy012]

Thank you both for the condolences and help. This horse was in a trainer’s barn, so that was our first thought. That said, another family talked to them and was left with the impression that nobody wants this horse because of the accident? That didn’t make much sense to me.

Apologies for being high level/vague. It is combination of ignorance of detail as well as not wanting to cast aspersions. I will see about getting the initial info about the horse, that seems like a good place to start.

[lenapesadie]

@rezzy012

This horse was in a trainer’s barn, so that was our first thought. That said, another family talked to them and was left with the impression that nobody wants this horse because of the accident? That didn’t make much sense to me.

I’m so sorry to hear about your family member.

Perhaps the trainer meant no one in the current barn wants to buy the horse (not no one in the world wants to buy the horse)? I can see where I might not want to buy a horse that my barn mate (friend) died on. There is also a chance that the horse has a known medical condition that is responsible for the tripping; such things exist and would greatly reduce value and also might be common knowledge in the barn.

Perhaps the executor of the estate could contact the veterinarian and the farrier? Both of those professionals should be able to provide you with some history regarding the horse’s health and might possibly know a buyer.

Alternatively, I believe there are sales barns where horses are sent to be marketed and sold. If the current trainer is unwilling to market the horse and the horse’s health checks out as clear a sales barn might be something to consider.

[Peggy]

I am so sorry for your loss.

Assuming the horse checks out medically, it should be sellable. Years ago a horse in our area did a rotational fall over a jump with his rider and the rider was unfortunately killed. They were ultimately able to sell the horse. I have no idea if they made or lost money on the sale.

[Scribbler]

Yes. Whether the rider dies in a fall is flukey. People take horrible falls, get injured, and come back to ride the same horse. Not knowing what happened I would not presume to say anything about the resale value.

That said i can totally see the trainer simply not wanting to deal with the horse out of grief and horror. Ask the trainer to recommend a reputable sales barn.

[SuzieQNutter]

I am so sorry for your loss.

A horse tripping could have been something out of the blue. He could have been on a trail ride and tripped over a tree root on the trail, then that is not the horses fault and can be sold with nothing on your concious.

If the horse was ridden on the forehand, there is a lot of weight from the horse and the rider on the front legs, and can be corrected by a better rider and not trip again and you can sell with nothing on your concious.

If the horse has something wrong with its hooves/legs/back/neck/etc, and is continually tripping. There is a saying. No hoof means no horse. This can range from from the extreme, then it is kinder to retire the horse from being ridden. The only way you can make sure the horse is never ridden again is to not sell and retire, which is very expensive or euthanize, which is harder on you the human, than for the horse that will never suffer again, or it could be as simple as getting an equine chiropractor to adjust him.

The hardest thing for you, is you do not know what you don’t know. Anybody with any experience will appear great to you and you won’t see the bad. For example, if the trip was from the horse and rider riding on the forehand, that is because of their trainer and you are not experienced enough to know a good trainer from a bad trainer.

Saying that the horse is unmarketable because of a trip is your first red flag. Do they think this is true? Do they know this is medically true? Are they trying to get the price dropped so they can buy the horse cheap and sell it for a higher price and pocket the profit?

You need the help of an experienced, ethical, good trainer.

You can not find this yourself. You need people on here to recommend trainers in your area to you. That would be where I would start in your shoes.

This is also a reminder to all of us on this forum. Do you have what happens to your horses in your Will?

[Ruth0552]

I understand not wanting to divulge details. Giving a general area might help other posters recommend someone to you. Do you know if the horse was even competing in Hunter/Jumpers? If the horse was jumping, it could also be an Eventer.

Another option would be to contact the horse’s regular veterinarian. The vet might be able to tell you if the horse is saleable. If the horse was older, or not very sound, the vet should know.

Your family member must also have friends that they rode with. You could also try contacting them. I know if something happened to me my family would contact a close riding buddy of mine to ask what to do.

[ToTheNines]

I’m sorry for your loss.

About six months ago, a horse tripped with me and took me to the ground with him. It was a very bad fall for me. We were cantering so there was a bit of momentum. I was lucky to have not broken my neck – despite having on a vest, I had very bad whiplash.

I could not ride that horse again. I spent a month trying to visualize it, but when I felt good enough to ride again, I could not get back on that horse. I did not want my trainer to ride it either. I did not feel right asking a friend to ride it. I had my vet examine him and she found nothing wrong with him. She concluded that “this horse knows where his feet are”.

In all likelihood, the horse fell because I was riding on a loose-ish rein and he was not paying attention. But in years and years of riding, and of having many horses trip, most recovered and I recovered and got our balance back without incident. But I shudder to think how many excellent riders have been harmed by a horse actually falling and taking the rider with them.

However, I could not see through advertising the horse for sale without also disclosing that he fell down. Nor did I want to ask my trainer to do so. There is a concept in law that considers the likelihood of risk against the gravity of harm. That fall was not likely to happen again, but that type of fall is so dangerous. I will add that the horse had a tripping issue. He was not lame, but every single ride, he would trip at the trot at least two or three times. He had never tripped at the canter, and on the day he fell, my mistake was thinking I would go ahead and canter and he would pay better attention to his feet.

After much consideration, I ended up giving him to a dressage trainer (with full disclosure), where he would be ridden in a much more managed manner. She is a careful person. She again had him examined and took some xrays. Nothing wrong. She put him into work at dressage, and sold him in-barn (with full disclosure) after 6 months with no incidents.

So that is onlyone story. However, the horse ended up with a good solution and no one personally involved with the fall was made to deal with the aftermath. I would talk to the trainer, get the horse a physical exam, and if the horse checks out, perhaps consider a new career for it as a dressage horse. Dressage is more managed and they more consistently ride the horse in more rein contact with more hind end engagement.

I would certainly talk to the trainer, and see if she has any suggestions. Even if she does not want to personally advertize him, she might have some suggestions about a solution for the horse.

I would also keep in mind, that from a trainer or owner’s perspective, if the horse were sold without disclosure, and another accident happened, IMO, the liability would be huge. In my case, six months later, I don’t think anyone is in danger, but six months ago, he could not simply be sold just like any other horse.

[Renn_aissance]

I am sorry for your loss.

I think you may feel most comfortable with input from the trainer, the horse’s veterinarian, and a lawyer with equine experience who practices in your state.

The trainer can speak to the horse’s experience and his current care, and how he could be best marketed and at what value. The veterinarian can advise on the horse’s physical suitability to continue performing at his current level. The attorney can take that information and help the estate understand what information to disclose to a potential buyer.

If I were to look at the horse for sale, I would want the previous vet’s report to compare to my own pre-purchase exam to rule out the spectre of a neurological problem that caused the horse to trip. (OP, it is typical for a potential buyer to enlist their own vet for a health check prior to purchase, so the buyer’s own vet can assess suitability for the job the buyer wants to do with the horse.) If the vet reports were clear then the unfortunate history wouldn’t bother me. I can see how a barnmate of the former owner might have different feelings.

[scrbear11]

@rezzy012

This horse was in a trainer’s barn, so that was our first thought. That said, another family talked to them and was left with the impression that nobody wants this horse because of the accident? That didn’t make much sense to me

With a lot of trainers, students and clients become family. In an accident like this, I do not blame the trainer at all for wanting to “pass the buck” (in a sense). There could likely be an emotional connection to the horse, deceased owner, and trainer, as well as the rest of the clients in the barn. I could see it being difficult for a trainer with this type of relationship able to represent the horse in a sale, or continue to work with the horse if a client purchased.

Could you tell us your approximate location? Maybe some of us can recommend some trainers who might be able to help.

I am so, so sorry for your loss.

[rezzy012]

Again thanks everyone, this is all helpful. Like mentioned up thread, you don’t know what you don’t know, so we have to trust the expertise of others. A further complication is that we just found out an elderly family member has been taken advantage of financially by a “friend”, so more cautious than normal.

Definitely seems like some reports from trainer and vet will be necessary to put together. Some of the questions regarding the horse, it was actively jumping at shows, I believe local/regional events. I have found references to Low Adult Jumper (1.0m) II2b and another to a 1.1m event. This barn is in Texas.

[GraceLikeRain]

Something that the family may also want to process is whether the goal is to find a reputable home for the horse so that it is no longer in the care of the estate or if the goal is to try and maximize a profit. I don’t think that either is right or wrong, it just alters the process.

For the process of selling a horse, even in a “hot market” there needs to be someone available to show the horse (including riding), answer questions, facilitate pre purchase exams (a medical inspection), and ensure paperwork is completed.

If a good home is the priority, the horses vet may be a great lead for identifying a reputable program willing to responsibly sell the horse at a lower amount for a quick and uncomplicated sale. It may be possible to accomplish this in a few weeks or a month, especially if the horse does not have any known medical issues and is suitable for a typical amateur.

If there is an interest in maximizing profit, a horse could be sent to a higher profile trainer who commands higher prices. The trade off is that the estate may accrue significant expense in the process with boarding fees, training, showing, etc. Unless there is a knowledgeable third party involved, the barn may see the estate as easy income and draw out the process.

If the horse is insured, that can also give a general ballpark of whether this is a $15k horse or a $75k horse. People often under insure but it can be a starting point for understanding.

[Elouise]

First off, I am so very sorry about the loss of your family member. My condolences.

In regards to the horse, it’s value, it’s salability….the answer is ‘it depends’. The other factor in what the estate wants to do with the horse is….it takes time to sell a horse; even in a good market. Many factors influence the price of the horse and your idea of ‘expensive’ may be different than other horses (let’s use a race horse as an example….some sell for $5,000, some sell for $100,000 and other race horses sell for $1,000,000. For a lot of people $5,000 is expensive for a horse). Also, the value of the horse is in the eyes of the purchaser (what can this horse do for me? Can I win classes? Am I safe? Is it comfortable? Will I learn to be a better rider? Can this horse teach me something?).

Sales price depends on many things:
-Location and who the heck is marketing it (Some people sell horses better than others period! They have contacts of who is looking for what).
-Age (some ages are just more appealing)
-Breed (a fancy good looking papered European Warmblood is worth more than a ‘Heinz 57’.)
-Training
-Show record (prizes in competitions make it more appealing for people who compete)
-Overall health (there are many things that are a NO-GO with many sales and are found on the potential purchaser’s veterinarian examination prior to purchase …kind of like a home inspection….so a ‘I want to buy this horse type of inspection.’).

But the one thing the executor and the estate must come to terms with; horses cost money to feed, train, show, shoe, take care of. As my mother always said ‘never invest in anything that eats.’ I am not sure how much the monthly costs are for this horse are (board, shoes, veterinary care, rides for keeping it fit), but you may want to consider donating it to a college riding program? That horse May eat away at any sales price money the estate May receive by just sitting in the barn.

For example….you are in a bit of a hurry, so you may be willing to take a bit less for the sales price of the horse (we call that a bit of a fire sale or ‘make me an offer’ type deal. If the horse is worth $25,000 (just picking numbers out of a hat here, since I have no idea the value of the horse), but the estate would take say $15,000 for a quick sale, but it costs you $2,500 a month to keep the horse and it takes you 4 months to sell it for $15,000 and you pay a 10% sales commission on a $15,000 sale. Hmmm. $10K in board costs plus the $1,500 commission for a big whopping $3,500 worth of headaches and phone calls. While a college donation means the horse leaves as soon as the college agrees to take it. It’s gone and no more feed bills and the potential for it to get hurt and cost the estate even more money!

Again, I have no idea the value. Now if the horse is worth $100,000 and a fire sale price of $75,000 and it costs you $2500 a month to keep it (but don’t forget any travel expenses to competitions so potential buyers can see it at $2,000/ a pop). Different story.

The executor needs to talk with a few proven horse professionals in the area to get an idea of reasonable expectations on the sale of this horse and then advise the beneficiaries of pros/cons and expectations and expenses. The current trainer is obviously not helpful or reliable. Time to get better help.

[hillary_again]

OP, go talk to the trainer yourself and get the details. There may be a giant mixup in the information that you are getting, and that trainer may be able to assist you with a whole lot of this. If that trainer doesn’t, ask for help to get the horse to it’s next step. I understand the emotions here, but the horse doesn’t, and the trainer is in the best position to give you some direction. You’ve done a good job getting background information. Sorry for this terrible tragedy. Just awful.

[TheJenners]

OP, I am so sorry for your loss. Is there any chance your family member has paperwork on the horse at home? This is definitely a place to start because it will give you some good facts that are completely objective.

The executor can also find out and contact the horse’s vet for information, hopefully the vet will understand give all the records and details and assist the family.

I guess this a good wake up for us all if you are the only horse-minded person in your family, what can happen if the unexpected happens.

[TheDBYC]

I have nothing to add to the great advice you’ve gotten. But I couldn’t scroll past & not express my condolences. I am so, so sorry

[Altag]

Such a sad situation, my condolences.

Remember that the horse is an athlete and if he’s not injured, he needs to maintain his exercise/conditioning/training to stay mentally and physically healthy and, at least to some extent, to maintain his value. A competition horse that has been sitting in a field for months and is out of shape is not the same as a horse in top-notch condition.

So you may need to ensure that this horse is getting ridden sufficiently for exercise and possibly appropriate training to keep him fit until you sell him.

If you have questions about commission percentage, or sales agreements, or managing the horse until he’s sold, COTH is a great resource.

[rezzy012]

Again thank you all. The surviving spouse is the only one with physical access to documents, and currently the grief is still pretty overwhelming. Trying to find them…

The horse supposedly has papers, passport, etc. I believe it is a Belgian and was purchased for mid 5 figures. Not sure exactly when that was, or if its value has gone up or down since then.

We know that a horse like this is expensive to keep up with properly so every month that passes will eat away at the net proceeds. The goal I think is both get it to a good home, with above board sales process, disclosures etc. and use the proceeds to settle estates debts.

Let’s say for best case scenario that the current trainer is above board (meaning the surviving spouse in grief misunderstood) and will help market and sell the horse. Assuming all medical, vet, papers etc are in order and clear, is it safe to assume a few months, perhaps 3-6 months, to sell? What is a reasonable monthly cost to keep such an animal properly kept? What is a normal fee for whoever markets and sells the horse (hourly rate, expenses plus commission, what %, etc)?

From what I can see, the estate needs the proceeds to help with debt, so needs to sell at a good price, but doesn’t really have the cash to cover costs for months and months. It is a tough situation. I really recommend anyone with animals to get these details ironed out beforehand and ideally have plenty of assets available to carry out the wishes.