Looking for outside perspective on issue with new horse

[SkiPony]

Hello, long time reader but first time poster.

I’m looking for some outside perspectives on a situation I’m in with my new horse. I’m a mid- thirties re-rider that started riding again last summer after a 14-year break. I’m an intermediate rider, comfortable at wtc and over low fences, and can handle some shenanigans (I know it’s a low bar but wanted to give some background).

I purchased a 14 yo QH gelding 2 months ago, after searching for several months for a horse to do flatwork and low fences, nothing fancy. He came to my barn as a consignment horse, and he seemed decent at the wtc, especially in a new location and having been a pasture puff for the last couple months. My trainer and I were only able to ride him once due to high interest before I purchased him.

I started having issues fairly quickly, despite putting him into partial training. It turns out he’s got a past history of being “bouncy” at the canter, and I got tossed off the first week (did get back on and canter the same lesson). As the weeks have progressed, the behavior has worsened and now occurs at all gaits with me. He not’s broncing, but it’s bucking with some mini-rearing. My trainer has been able to get on and ride him with minimal misbehaving, but he puts up a much bigger fight with me that seems to be worsening each ride. My trainer is fairly stumped because I’m doing all the things she’s recommending / does when he starts acting up but with much different results. I’m to the point where going to the barn causes significant anxiety and I don’t feel safe getting on him as he feels like a powder keg. These shenanigans are beyond me.

I have a vet coming out, but it seems like if it was a pain issue, it would be consistent across riders (Of note, he did well on his PPE). We’ve tried different tack, but no improvement. I guess he’s “got my number”, but these worsening responses seem specific to me.

I just don’t know where to go from here? I tried to do everything right with this purchase, but it’s turning into a nightmare. Does anybody have any insight or experience with a similar situation?

[Scribbler]

I expect that it is pain, and that was the reason he got turfed out to pasture. Maybe the problem went away with rest and then came back with work.

A horse in discomfort may express it more strongly with a less confident rider. A very strong rider can keep a horse between hand and leg so it can’t get away with anything even if it’s in pain.

[J-Lu]

It could very well be pain. Or behavioral issues.

My friend recently purchased a 14 year old trail horse from a former trainer (he died, the wife wanted to sell the horse to my friend due to their relationship). The horse has pulled such shenanigans on the new owner, including not wanting to walk forward when the owner wanted. I rode the horse and it was not a fun ride but responded with my demanding aids. “Oh, you really want me to to this? OK”. I had to tell the horse “sorry, but you listen to me in this 1 hour out of your 24 hour day”. She obliged. But she was PITA because she pretty much didn’t want to work and had all sorts of evasions. I thought “you actually came from a trainer? Really?”

“bouncy” at the canter makes me thing your horse isn’t forward. I suggest working with a dressage whip on the ground to teach the horse that the whip means “activate that leg” or lift it on the ground and then ride with the whip. The whip transformed the horse I mentioned above.

Bucking and mini-realring isn’t acceptable. If the horse is clear of vet issues, the horse is taking advantage of you to get out of work. If you’re comfortable, make him GO THROUGH these events. Want to rear? Feel my spurs in you side. Want to buck? oh please try to buck in shoulder-in. lets see how you can pull that off. None of this is with anger, but it is putting the horse into an an exercise he can’t easily misbehave in. And you are confident enough to say “No, we’re not doing that”.

I suspect from your post that you aren’t as aggressive as you trainer in saying “no, that’s not acceptable behavior”. Want to buck? Raise your hands and his head so it is really uncomfortable for him to buck. Or put him into any lateral movement because that is also uncomfortable for him to buck in. Reel him into a 10 m circle, hmmmm, it’s hard to pull off bucking on a 10 m circle. If he gets strong, stop him and back him up each time until he realizes that he can’t push you over. He wants to jig at the walk? Leg yield him right for 6-8 steps, then left for 6-8 steps. Remind him that he has to listen to you for instruction because instruction can change at any time and he isn’t control of riding instruction.

A “bouncy” canter doesn’t get you tossed. Either you can’t ride a canter or you’re downplaying your horse’s buck. It seems to me that you’re horse is learning to get out of work with bad habits and he thinks he’ winning. Can your trainer watch you ride without commenting until the end to really watch how you and your horse are communicating?

[SkiPony]

Thank you for your responses so far. Bouncy is an incorrect description. I was copying how it was downplayed to me after I purchased him. It turns out he was sent for training last summer, and one of the issues that was worked on was bucking at the canter.

I do agree that I’m not as aggressive as my trainer. I have been doing the elevated hands/ tight circles/ kicking forward/ backing up, but as soon as I try to move forward again, more bucking. I’m scared of his escalation now, which I know is not a helpful mind set, but I’ve never been so consistently and aggressively challenged by horse.

At this point, barring a vet issue, I’m looking at paying for a month of just pro-rides vs selling him.

[Scribbler]

I think you need the pro rides if you want to sell him. Who is going to buy him as he is now?

[Jenerationx]

Your trainer agreed to you buying this horse? I’d have the trainer put some pro rides on him and sell him ASAP. It doesn’t sound like this is a good fit for you.

[blue_heron]

First, I’d have you or your trainer call the seller and give them a piece of your mind. See if they will make right on information not disclosed to you.

I’d be going back to groundwork until physical issues are ruled out with this horse. Why can’t you just enjoy him, groom him, do trail obstacles on the ground? I understand it might not be an attractive proposition right now but might be a good thing in the end if he comes around. I don’t think this is a situation where getting through the scary stuff is going to be beneficial. I’m done advising people to ride through their horse’s unsafe behavior.

[lenapesadie]

How extensive was the PPE?

A horse with a history of bucking either has chronic pain issue or chronic training issue.

Depending on how extensive your PPE was, I’d consider putting horse in training to be sold. If your PPE was light, you might call for a lameness exam now. Perhaps horsie has something going on that is being aggravated by work so it wasn’t noticed at PPE.

[LilRanger]

If he doesn’t make you want to ride, sell him. You said there was a lot if interest when you bought him, maybe someone is still interested?

Don’t keep him if he isn’t what you want. I second getting pro rides in preparation to sell.

[endlessclimb]

Two months in, I’d figure out a way to get him sold. Horses are too expensive to not be fun, so I’d head for the pro-rides and get him out the door.

[beowulf]

Can you increase his turnout time while you and your trainer figure out what is going on? Maybe even give him MSM AM/PM and see if it helps? In my experience this really helps cut the edge off of a horse - especially one that may have a physical complaint made worse by standing around in a stall.

It’s not uncommon for horses to go differently for different riders - including pain. A strong (to the aids) rider can sometimes downplay a physical problem by keeping the horse firmly between their leg and hand with nowhere to go. A strong enough rider can even mask a headbob.

@SkiPony

I do agree that I’m not as aggressive as my trainer. I have been doing the elevated hands/ tight circles/ kicking forward/ backing up, but as soon as I try to move forward again, more bucking. I’m scared of his escalation now, which I know is not a helpful mind set, but I’ve never been so consistently and aggressively challenged by horse.

I know I don’t have eyes on the situation, but that is not necessarily how I would handle a bucking/rearing horse and that tripped some flags for me. Obviously, stick to the advice of your trainer over a random on the internet – but, my main MO when I am dealing with a challenging horse is to de-escalate, not escalate their frustration.

You said this gives you anxiety. I don’t blame you. Riding is supposed to be FUN. Don’t stick it out with a horse who makes you nervous or upset. If you have the budget for it, get to the bottom of his pain, treat it, and sell him/move him on. I’d make sure you are perfectly honest in representing him, because otherwise someone else will end up in the same position as you in the long run, and the horse will likely be passed on from person to person until he runs out of soft landings.

[Posting_Trot]

What did the vet do on the PPE?

What you’re describing makes me think that the horse is in pain. As others have posted above, that pain might have disappeared when he was not in work, and then the pain returned (perhaps worse than before) once he was back into regular riding. It is not that surprising to me that he is worse with you than with your trainer.

Another possibility: You haven’t talked about saddle fit, and a saddle that doesn’t fit (particularly if it pinches) could be the culprit. You might try getting a fitter in to see if that is an issue.

At this stage, frankly, if you’re scared to get on the horse out of concern for what he might do, then you have to do some hard thinking. You could just ride him at walk-trot for a while while you’re waiting for additional vet work. See if you can just avoid some of the worst behaviors he’s thrown at you.

I think that, if you try to sell the horse as is, you’ll either have no buyers or you’ll have to do what was apparently done to you–downplay the horse’s issues and sell the horse fast.

Good luck: this is not a great situation to be in.

[SkiPony]

Thank you again to everyone that has weighed in, and I appreciate your suggestions. Some I had bounced around in my head, so it’s good to know I was on the right track. Pending vet exam, I agree he needs some pro- rides no matter what. I think I just wanted to hear from others that it wasn’t insane to contemplate selling a horse this quickly for bad fit. I want my time with horses to be mostly enjoyable and educational, not something I dread.

[Abbie.S]

This is not a slight against the OP, but a good lesson for all - do NOT buy a horse under pressure for any reason, especially if you are an amateur rider. You really need to know what you’ve got in a horse you’re looking to buy.

It sounds like the OP purchased the horse quickly because of perceived pressure that the horse would sell quickly. In this kind of market, that happens a lot, but the potential cost is this exact scenario. I have no doubt this horse had issues long before the OP bought him.

I declined to assist a student in looking at horses a while back because she refused to take the one piece of advice I told her was the most important: make sure you can go out and ride the horse multiple times, at different times of day, with or without me present, and make sure the animal is what you need it to be. Do not take the bait when a seller says “well, I’ve got some other folks lookin’, so he may be gone by the end of the weekend”. There is always another good horse out there if you’re willing to be patient, but once you’ve signed on the dotted line, whatever rock you left unturned is going to show up eventually.

[Sparky]

I would start with another of the basics- what is he being fed? If it’s a big change from his previous life, it could at least be part of the problem. Going from pasture to, say, alfalfa and grain, is going to make the quietest horse a bit bouncy.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@SkiPony

I think I just wanted to hear from others that it wasn’t insane to contemplate selling a horse this quickly for bad fit.

Just to reinforce this, no, you are not insane. I’m older than you and as I have gotten older and learned the hard way (3 times - I’m kind of hardheaded ) that I don’t bounce anymore, I break, I have finally embraced the philosophy of “If it’s not working out and I’m not having fun, it’s time to sell.”

I’ve learned that I need to be a lot more careful about what I buy now than I did when I was younger. When I was young, I could say, “Well, yeah, this horse has some issues, but we can work through it” and get away with it. I can’t do that anymore and even if I could, I no longer want to. I just want to get on and ride and have a good time on a safe, reliable horse.

[Bluey]

A just bought 14 year old horse with such quirks is not worth keeping around.
Chalk it to experience, you have to kiss some frogs before you find a prince.

That horse seems to be not only unsuitable, but dangerous!
How many times do you have to ride his bucking and fall off and get by not being injured to realize no one today needs to be trying the same and expecting different results?

He is just not the horse you had in your mind would please you and definitely not the one you need to be riding.

Now, how to sell him, that maybe is best left to your trainer and take whatever you may he could be worth to someone else that thinks quirky horses are fun?

[TheDBYC]

@SkiPony

I think I just wanted to hear from others that it wasn’t insane to contemplate selling a horse this quickly for bad fit. I want my time with horses to be mostly enjoyable and educational, not something I dread.

As I mentioned in another thread, I was at a schooling hunter show yesterday. And as is typical for hunter shows, it was an all day affair. (I seriously need to drag my SO along to one because he doesn’t get how it can take that long for one child to ride in a few classes.)

Anyway, especially in the kids’ classes where you need either a small pony or a dead quiet, very smooth & careful horse, and have some (imo idiotic) restrictions on X category entries, you see an awful lot of “kind of sort of ohhhh so close & yet sooo far” and even “lesser of the available evils” match ups. And it isn’t fun for anybody. Setting aside the bucking, a horse & human are two intelligent beings with fully nuanced personalities. Sometimes, it just doesn’t work. And there’s no shame in acknowledging that & moving along to a better fit for both. The horse has no control of his situation. It’s up to the humans involved to get him into a situation where he can thrive.

I agree with others that it could be a lot of things.
I know of one horse that was 14 or so, had been backed & had at least 90 days of training under an Olympian & had mostly been sitting around since due to a rumored rep for bucking. It took a lower level trainer finally going, “Hey, maybe he needs his hocks and SI looked at,” to sort it out. Horse is fine with novices on it now. Sometimes, there’s pain but a pro with their strong self-carriage either might not trigger the pain or can push the horse through it. Some horses are simply more mentally rigid & the canter seems to be where the wheels really fall off in those cases. The horse may also just have your number.

No harm in ruling out pain issues, paying for a month of pro rides, and selling.

[Bogie]

You are not wrong to be apprehensive about riding this horse. A couple of things:

1. Contact the previous owner regarding this behavior. If the horse was sent out for pro-training last year because of a bucking issue, then they knew about it. Depending on the state you live in, you may have some legal recourse to return the horse.
2. In addition to the vetting, have a good, independent saddle fitter look at your saddle fit. Does your trainer ride in the same saddle or use his/her own?
3. Consider more turnout and less grain as part of your feeding regime. Also, consider ulcers as something that might cause balkiness or misbehavior.
4. Try giving Bute for a few days to see if the horse behaves better. If it’s pain related, that might help you figure out what’s going on.

Absolutely sell the horse if you don’t enjoy riding him, but keep in mind that now that you know about these issues, you either need to sell with full disclosure or spend $$ trying to figure out what’s wrong.

Here are some articles on lemon laws and horses. Depending on what the seller said (or didn’t say) about the previous behavior issues, they could have misrepresented the horse, which is fraud, but I’m not sure how difficult (or expensive) it could be to prove that.

When Your Horse Turns Out to Be a Lemon

The Seller Misrepresented the Horse You Bought - Now What?

Good luck. I hope you find out it’s something easily “fixed” because it’s saddle fit or otherwise benign and that you can either start to enjoy riding the horse or sell him to someone who can live with his quirks. FWIW, my OTTB was definitely “bouncy” when I first got him. We spent the first 10-15 minutes of every ride springing into the air at a canter. His previous owner found this intimidating and returned him to the rehoming organization. It didn’t bother me because he wasn’t bucking and wasn’t trying to get me off. Ignoring the “problem” worked and after he got it out of his system, he would settle down to work.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

I agree, I think it’s a pain issue. I wouldn’t ride him any more until you get a thorough examination. I’d want the vet to look for kissing spine, hock issues (one of mine acted a little like this when his hocks needed injected, but NOT this bad!), and neck/poll issues. Also, scope him for ulcers! And ditto to whoever asked about the diet - EPSM is a possibility.

You said he acted like this for both you and the trainer. Does your trainer use a different saddle? Have you had saddle fit checked by a reputable, knowledgeable fitter?

Do you lunge him at all? If so, does he act like this on the lunge line, tacked up, but with no one in the saddle? Is he fit enough for the kind of work you’re asking of him? A horse that’s been off for a year, then brought back into full-time work, is going to need to be brought back slowly and carefully.