Looking for stallions who throw a strong hind end and quiet temperament

[back_in_the_saddle]

And I don’t disagree… I did say: Belissimo M produces a slow hind. I didn’t say ANYTHING about him having a weak hind. And I also said, Yes, there are SOME… (And Sandro Hit has some in UL as well regardless of what some here have said about SH in past threads.) The key is: every horse has a mother. I know others feel the same way, notice how some top breeders do NOT use Belissimo. I’ve had heart to heart conversations with a few folks about this when I had his semen. I bought him for a mare and then decided to ride that mare instead and he wasn’t right for another - based on her hind leg - so I sold that semen.

“the OP isn’t looking to produce an upper level horse”
Are you saying it’s not important to think beyond what someone wants?
My mare produced an upper level mare who her AA owner/rider has personally taken to I1 (or I2). I doubt upper level was in the AA owners mind when that mare was purchased either. My philosophy is to breed AA horses who can get to UL regardless of what their owners initial ‘goal’ is. isn’t that better than producing a LL horse ‘on purpose’?

[Donella]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7769970]
And I don’t disagree… I did say: Belissimo M produces a slow hind. I didn’t say ANYTHING about him having a weak hind. And I also said, Yes, there are SOME… (And Sandro Hit has some in UL as well regardless of what some here have said about SH in past threads.) The key is: every horse has a mother. I know others feel the same way, notice how some top breeders do NOT use Belissimo. I’ve had heart to heart conversations with a few folks about this when I had his semen. I bought him for a mare and then decided to ride that mare instead and he wasn’t right for another - based on her hind leg - so I sold that semen.

“the OP isn’t looking to produce an upper level horse”
Are you saying it’s not important to think beyond what someone wants?
My mare produced an upper level mare who her AA owner/rider has personally taken to I1 (or I2). I doubt upper level was in the AA owners mind when that mare was purchased either. My philosophy is to breed AA horses who can get to UL regardless of what their owners initial ‘goal’ is. isn’t that better than producing a LL horse ‘on purpose’?[/QUOTE]

The reality is that there will always be disagreements between top breeders and riders about all stallions. People have preferences. That doesn’t mean a stallion isn’t worth breeding to (at least in my mind).

You criticized my suggestion of Belissimo M because “he has a slow hind end”. My point is that slow is not necessarily weak, so therefore it may not be a bad choice for that mare. Does it say anywhere in the OP’s post that her mare is slow behind? I didn’t read that.

The OP said she is breeding her mare regardless so while it is nice to think outside the box, preference should be given to the OP’s breeding goals. I am not advocating breeding an LL horse on purpose but I am not of the opinion that a horse’s ability in the dressage ring is directly correlated to the speed of the hind leg. Belissimo himself is a bit slow and last time I checked he wasn’t struggling at the lower levels.

I also think that if the resulting foal comes out and is not very talented (hopefully that is not the case) it realistically has much less to do with Belissimo M than it does with the mother!

I just reread the OP’s post and have to say that if it is actually the case that the OP’s mare truly broke down at such a young age because of an inherent weakness in the hind end then I am sorry but I would never consider breeding this mare.

[Lilly]

Good luck. I hope the stallion can correct the mare’s unfortunate hind end conformation.

Your TB mare wasn’t such a good example to use since she too had to be retired relatively young due to injury.

[back_in_the_saddle]

He may be fine for that mare. I bought him for one of mine and if I was going to breed her I’d use him. He’s a nice stallion. But not for every mare. I would not double up on slow though.

It’s better for a rider to limit the horse going up than it is for the horse to limit the rider from going up. It would stink to breed a horse, love a horse, become a really good rider, and then face the problem of needing another horse that can do more.

This was only one more thing to think about with Belissimo. That’s it.

[Donella]

BITS I agree with you. No stallion is right for every mare, no matter how well he produces.

It’s better for a rider to limit the horse going up than it is for the horse to limit the rider from going up. It would stink to breed a horse, love a horse, become a really good rider, and then face the problem of needing another horse that can do more.

I agree with you on this too but I think the key in keeping the quality really high lies in breeding appropriate mares.

[Kyzteke]

Of the stallions mentioned, I think Goodtimes has the best chance of producing all you want. He is beyond proven as a sire, consistantly produces/improves the hind end, is proven for producing both jumpers & dressage horses (and hunters) and is most famous for giving his foals a delightful personality.

About the only thing he doesn’t do is add size, (in fact he tends to produce abit smaller than the mare per KWPN values). But that isn’t an issue in this case.

Also he is known as a superior broodmare sire, just in case you get a filly and things don’t work out.

Not to mention his frozen (the old stuff, he doesn’t freeze OR ship anymore) is rocket fuel…

[back_in_the_saddle]

[QUOTE=Donella;7770495]

I agree with you on this too but I think the key in keeping the quality really high lies in breeding appropriate mares.[/QUOTE]

1000% in agreement!

[Majestic_Gaits]

Navarone throws strong hind ends and easy easy temperaments. They are great for amateurs and seem to excel in jumping, dressage and eventing. Navarone himself is leased out to an amateur, if that gives you a clue!

Kathy

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

[QUOTE=alexandra;7768060]
I did not suggest the W line in first place because in general in combination with great temperament it is not always what I would associate with W line. Exception for me: Wolkentanz I. But maybe not temperament but for sure rideability.[/QUOTE]

I’m surprised, many W stallions are known for producing amateur-friendly mounts. They tend to be fairly level headed, maybe not the stallions, but the geldings and mares. One of the most laid-back horses I’ve worked with was a Winterprinz son, such a mellow dude, took mid-morning naps flat-out in his stall. He was agreeable about pretty much everything, and his idea of upset was kind of a joke. I’m hoping this Werbellin will be just as nice but a little more up and forward under tack rather than long and low and slow like the Winterprinz likes to be.

@TrotTrotPumpkn;7768088

What popped into my head was Werbellin…maybe too tall?

Nah, hes only 16.2hh and if this is the mare’s first foal I doubt it will be very large. Our Werbellin will (hopefully) be about 16. It wouldn’t be unrealistic to get 16.1hh but I doubt you’d get larger. Granted we’ve had some giants from our last brood mare but they were out of 17hh stallions and they weren’t her first foal (her first foal was 15.3hh).

Belissimo M is a really nice stallion. I think he has a powerful hind end but it has a weak loin/back connection. It just doesn’t quiet tie in nicely, and I see it repeatedly on many of his offspring. His hind end is powerful but compact and it exaggerates this weak connection where the shoulder is a big circle and the butt is a smaller circle. Structurally the hind end is not weak, I guess it’s just harder to develop properly. This weird loin/back connection could be the reason the Belissimo M produces a slow hind end.

If I wanted to improve shoulder I’d be looking at the B line, if I want to improve hind end I think W.

I would pick a stallion that has enough proven performance horses on the ground that you’re not crossing your fingers and hoping (as much).

I’ll be honest, Rachel at GGF is amazing to work with and is such a great person. She’ll definitely be helpful if she thinks that Werbellin is not the right choice for the mare without being discouraging, and would be able to point you in a better direction. She really knows her stuff too.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7772471]
Of the stallions mentioned, I think Goodtimes has the best chance of producing all you want. He is beyond proven as a sire, consistantly produces/improves the hind end, is proven for producing both jumpers & dressage horses (and hunters) and is most famous for giving his foals a delightful personality.

About the only thing he doesn’t do is add size, (in fact he tends to produce abit smaller than the mare per KWPN values). But that isn’t an issue in this case.

Also he is known as a superior broodmare sire, just in case you get a filly and things don’t work out.

Not to mention his frozen (the old stuff, he doesn’t freeze OR ship anymore) is rocket fuel…[/QUOTE]

How do you know if you aren’t getting the old stuff? Real question.

[Bellfleur]

Coeur d’Amour

Had three, sold two. Didn’t matter which mare all had quick and strong rear ends with three excellent gaits. Even the hunter mare produced a lot of suspension with fab jumping talent. (Free so far) Great temperaments, super friendly and easy. Enough blood to handle eventing but none are hot. Very modern type. One two year old just was reserve champion at his young event horse competition.

U can see his pics and videos here. http://www.hphanoverians.com/coeur-d-amour.html

No worries about line breeding. I would not breed a D line stallion esp to a mare with less than perfect hind leg conformation. Not did I have much fun with the W line disposition foals I had either.

Plus you can have fresh semen instead of worrying about frozen.

Please remember this is personal choices only. Others might have a totally different experiences and views. It kind of like saying there is one man that would work for all women. Not happening.

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=Bellfleur;7788320]
Coeur d’Amour

Had three, sold two. Didn’t matter which mare all had quick and strong rear ends with three excellent gaits. Even the hunter mare produced a lot of suspension with fab jumping talent. (Free so far) Great temperaments, super friendly and easy. Enough blood to handle eventing but none are hot. Very modern type. One two year old just was reserve champion at his young event horse competition.

U can see his pics and videos here. http://www.hphanoverians.com/coeur-d-amour.html

No worries about line breeding. I would not breed a D line stallion esp to a mare with less than perfect hind leg conformation. Not did I have much fun with the W line disposition foals I had either.

Plus you can have fresh semen instead of worrying about frozen.

Please remember this is personal choices only. Others might have a totally different experiences and views. It kind of like saying there is one man that would work for all women. Not happening.[/QUOTE]

I’ve always admired this guy. Bellfleur, what were the mares like that you bred to him?

[sporthorsefilly]

My choice for a strong hind end and a wonderful ammy friendly temperment is Ironman

Here are my two girls:

Yearling: Ironreign: http://www.herselffarm.com/images/Reign2014/Best_Reign_Tina_BYH(1).jpg

Three Year Old: Ironrose: http://www.herselffarm.com/images/Clue_BYH.jpg

[stoicfish]

Weltmeyer was not know to be…easy to get along with. Nor are his offspring. I think the grand kids will be hit and miss. Maybe not quite as stubborn but many will have their own opinions.
For those speaking about the W-line.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=TrotTrotPumpkn;7787056]
How do you know if you aren’t getting the old stuff? Real question. :)[/QUOTE]

Kathy at Majestic Gaits carries it and there is a collection date stamped on each straw. She told me they have stuff that from his younger days.

[houserabbitz]

@yourcolorfuladdiction;7785965

Belissimo M is a really nice stallion. I think he has a powerful hind end but it has a weak loin/back connection. It just doesn’t quiet tie in nicely, and I see it repeatedly on many of his offspring. His hind end is powerful but compact and it exaggerates this weak connection where the shoulder is a big circle and the butt is a smaller circle. Structurally the hind end is not weak, I guess it’s just harder to develop properly. This weird loin/back connection could be the reason the Belissimo M produces a slow hind end.

If I wanted to improve shoulder I’d be looking at the B line, if I want to improve hind end I think W.

I don’t agree with this. I don’t have my 2014 Jahrbuch Hengste in front of me, but I know Belissimo M has better stats than Weltmeyer for frame. Considering Belissimo M is a 1999 model and Weltmeyer is a 1984 model (I think), the former has an impressive number of offspring in upper level dressage. This means they can sit and collect. Weltmeyers have suspension, and Weltmeyer in particular, could step under his center of gravity. IMO, Belissimos are more elastic. I do not agree that Belissimo himself has an odd, or weak loin, or that he produces the same. If your friend is open to most registries, she should research her type statistics if she is concerned about hind end conformation. An example of an excellent type producing stallion as well as a quiet temperament is Dauphin. She can also look at Wolkentanz II, who produces (statistically speaking) a better type than his full brother as well has a nice temperament. Weltmeyers are definitely known for big, bouncy movement, but not known for a strong loin; those are not one in the same. Harvard is another one (excellent type), as is Freestyle. I bred a wonderful, ammy friendly Widmark gelding. He had great suspension and I could ride him as a pregnant lady, but he was a bit long (his mommy was not) and weaker in the loin. Yearbooks, studbooks, statistics are where she should start. I think her mare is nice looking.

[kroening_hanoverian]

Hello, I have this mare’s full sister Annaka, foaled the year before Asante Sana. I would LOVE to hear updates on this thread! Was she ever bred? How is the foal today? Did she go on to have more foals?

[skydy]

Hello! Welcome to the COTH forums.

Since the OP hasn’t been on COTH for ten years, I really wouldn’t expect an answer to your question here, but you never know until you try.

[fanfayre]

Following on from @skydy’s response, I looked at All-breed Pedigree for progeny, but there were no offspring entries for her…