Looking for stallions who throw a strong hind end and quiet temperament

[Cassy_s_Mom]

Hello all,

I have a client looking to breed her mare this coming spring. Here is a conformation shot of the mare:

Per the owner her breeding is:
On top she has Ansas (Argentan I - Endflug), 1983 born in Germany. Went thru GP with his AA owner (who was also the mare’s breeder).
On bottom she is out of a Davignon (Donnerhall) x Werther mare named Desert Sun.

The mare is 7. Last year she had a stifle injury and the ligament isn’t healing well after surgery so we’re looking to breed. The goal is to get an AA friendly horse that’s “not too big” (The mare is 16.0 hands and the owner would be happy with 15.3 to 16.1) that the owner can do dressage and eventing with. The foal would never have to jump bigger than 3’6" but should be tidy and brave over fences, not hot, and a nice enough mover to score well in the dressage. Really we’re looking to produce the ideal AA horse. The owner is happy to put horses in training but at the end of the day wants to be able to ride her horses on her own.

As the trainer my biggest complaint about the mare was her hind end. It’s weak (and is probably why she injured the stifle in the first place). She wants to move a little wide behind and over fences she’s a little slow with her shoulder. The mare’s temperament is lovely…very level headed, brave, and overall quiet without being dull.

Having said that she was going to do and be everything the owner wanted. The intent was never to breed her but to ride her and it’s only the injury that’s changing the plan.

The owner is open to virtually any stallion or type of stallion. I personally am drawn to something like Quite Easy or Summertime…something with a good shoulder and nice movement.

Are there any other stallions you experts would pair with her knowing her bloodlines? (They are not bloodlines I’m at all familiar with). Thanks in advance!

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=Cassy’s Mom;7765464]
Hello all,

I have a client looking to breed her mare this coming spring. Here is a conformation shot of the mare:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-saZlIDU9jfM/VBpGjK4hZ_I/AAAAAAAAUjM/fWR3OlpO4LA/w562-h428-no/unnamed.jpg

Per the owner her breeding is:
On top she has Ansas (Argentan I - Endflug), 1983 born in Germany. Went thru GP with his AA owner (who was also the mare’s breeder).
On bottom she is out of a Davignon (Donnerhall) x Werther mare named Desert Sun.

The mare is 7. Last year she had a stifle injury and the ligament isn’t healing well after surgery so we’re looking to breed. The goal is to get an AA friendly horse that’s “not too big” (The mare is 16.0 hands and the owner would be happy with 15.3 to 16.1) that the owner can do dressage and eventing with. The foal would never have to jump bigger than 3’6" but should be tidy and brave over fences, not hot, and a nice enough mover to score well in the dressage. Really we’re looking to produce the ideal AA horse. The owner is happy to put horses in training but at the end of the day wants to be able to ride her horses on her own.

As the trainer my biggest complaint about the mare was her hind end. It’s weak (and is probably why she injured the stifle in the first place). She wants to move a little wide behind and over fences she’s a little slow with her shoulder. The mare’s temperament is lovely…very level headed, brave, and overall quiet without being dull.

Having said that she was going to do and be everything the owner wanted. The intent was never to breed her but to ride her and it’s only the injury that’s changing the plan.

The owner is open to virtually any stallion or type of stallion. I personally am drawn to something like Quite Easy or Summertime…something with a good shoulder and nice movement.

Are there any other stallions you experts would pair with her knowing her bloodlines? (They are not bloodlines I’m at all familiar with). Thanks in advance![/QUOTE]

I know this is probably not the advice you are looking for, but I would strongly encourage your client not to breed this mare at all.

I looked at the photo link before I read your post and my first thought was that I would not breed a mare with that hind end. After reading that she has had a significant injury related to her conformation at such a young age, I really don’t think any stallion can be certain to give your client what she wants. She is very likely to end up with a copy of the mare and more heartbreak.

It really is often more cost effective to just buy a youngster that fits your criteria than try to produce one from a mare who did not stay sound.

There are lots of adorable youngsters on facebook or sales sites to check out that will be ready to show on the line next spring. Her mare could have more time off to heal rather than stress her injury with the weight of carrying a foal.

JMHO

[alibi_18]

The goal is to get an AA friendly horse that’s “not too big” (The mare is 16.0 hands and the owner would be happy with 15.3 to 16.1) that the owner can do dressage and eventing with. The foal would never have to jump bigger than 3’6" but should be tidy and brave over fences, not hot, and a nice enough mover to score well in the dressage. Really we’re looking to produce the ideal AA horse. The owner is happy to put horses in training but at the end of the day wants to be able to ride her horses on her own.

What if “the goal” doesn’t come out as predicted?

I suggest she buys a made horse that’s already doing the job.

[SportArab]

There is no such thing as a perfect horse. You just need to find a stallion that consistently throws good hind ends.

I have one of those, but he’s a 15.1 h Arabian and perhaps not what you are looking for.

[Cassy_s_Mom]

Sometimes this forum can be a little frustrating :-/

I think in hindsight I should have left out the details and just asked if anyone knew of stallions that were known for passing on a strong hind end and a good temperament.

I posted a mare here 3 years ago…and OTTB I bought for sport and people here told me how weak her hind end was and how she would never jump. She DID jump (3’6"+) and compete and then we found an old racing injury to her hind suspensery had flared up. I bred her and the foal is lovely and was named as a “Foal of Distinction” by the Oldenberg registry. Subsequent posts about the mare and foal elicited complements on how lovely my mare was and how well she was put together.

My point - everyone has an opinion. I was asking for stallion suggestions. We will breed this mare. We want to breed. We don’t want to buy. If “the goal” doesn’t come out as predicted the foal will have a forever home with the owner. She has the means and land to care for another horse for the rest of that horse’s life. I suspect that’s what any of you would do if your “goal” doesn’t come out as predicted.

We are not looking to breed a world beater. We’re looking to breed a forever horse for this owner and the act of breeding this horse is part of the journey this owner would like to go on.

[Stoney447]

@Cassy's Mom;7765464

The owner is open to virtually any stallion or type of stallion. I personally am drawn to something like Quite Easy or Summertime…something with a good shoulder and nice movement.

I think you have a good idea thinking about Quite Easy to improve the hind end, and he tends to throw a pretty good temperament.

Have you looked at Bon Balou at all?

[Meadow36]

I am essentially looking to breed a similar horse, especially the amateur friendly part with some talent for eventing.

My top choices are Bon Balou, Roc USA and Flagmount’s Freedom.

Flag will most definitely add an engine (I’ve seen some in person, out of slighter TB mares - the hind ends were wide like mac trucks). Roc has a great jump that he passes on and the ultimate amateur mind (I’ve met several of these in person also; so easy to work with and they win everywhere). Bon Balou is a new one to me but I love the pedigree and his videos are fabulous so he makes the list. Check them out.

[Beentheredonethat]

Freestyle. Puts super hind ends on them consistently and super minds.

[tuckawayfarm]

I apologize that you found my post offensive. I have been in the show world for a long time prior to breeding and have seen so many owners frustrated with soundness issues. Most people find it disappointing to put the training on a horse only to have it not hold up to long term work.

One of my goals in breeding good athletes is that they be able to perform well into their teens or with luck, even longer. I realize we all have different goals.

In your OP, size was one of the criteria listed. I love Roc USA and what I’ve seen of Bon Balou, but they are 16.3hh +, as is Summertime. Quite Easy is on the smaller side at 16.1hh. Goodtimes might be worth looking at. An older stallion, but very proven with great frozen. My Goodtimes had one of the best minds I’ve had on the farm.

Good luck!

[alexandra]

I would look at Don Principe ! having seen him in person in Germany, I really like the way he uses his hindlegs and he himself is really nice and easy to handle, plus both Donnerhall - Prince Thatch xx are known for high rideability. AS far as I can rad in this forums, his offsrping is also quite successfull in breeds shows plus under saddle.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

So when I think “powerful hind end” I think the “W” line. It’s not super “modern” like some of the stallions people are suggesting. Horses from the “W” line are KNOWN for their powerful hind ends. We just had our Werbellin colt hit the ground this May and he is SO powerful from behind. He was out of our mare by Bonheur out of a Davignon mare. So she has a fantastic shoulder and her hind end isn’t lacking (but in my mind you can never have too much power from behind). So from what it looks like right now (if you believe that a reasonable view of what a foal will turn out to look like is what he looks like at 3 days, 3 months, and 3 years) we got a large tour horse out of our small tour horse.

I would strongly suggest a stallion like Werbellin. Our foal did come out a bit feisty but with proper handling he’s super intelligent and a quick learner. I’m pretty sure he gets most of his feisty from his mom too, she’s a bit feisty lol.

I would like to note that when we took him to the Hanoverian Inspection to get registered and branded the judges were gushing about how correct he was.

Most horses can jump 3’ as long as there is no medical reason not to. I wouldn’t worry about that criteria. Plus any stallion that is approved has had to do a jumping portion of the stallion testing to show that that they can, in fact, jump.

Again, my suggestion would be the “W” line. They are definitely ammy friendly and have powerful hind ends. I mean, that is what they are known for.

[Zoey101]

I bred my mare to Bon Balou and got a lovely colt from the combo. I chose him because I needed to add power to my mare’s hind end, I wanted to add bone and improve her trot but keep the jump. So far, in watching him (he is a yearling now) I got what I wanted plus a super sweet personality. My mare is sensitive, and Bon Balou has such a great work ethic. I will say I went to visit Balou du Rouet a couple weeks ago, and he is a little spicier than Bon Balou, and has a kind of pony build. There have been some BdR offspring that are smaller, but to me, as long as they can jump, that’s what I bred for! I would highly recommend Jennifer at Dreamscape Farm, or if you want more info, feel free to PM me.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I think the W-line suggestion is a good idea. Don Principe too. Goodtimes may throw the size you want.

Just my two cents.

This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, but my filly was the sweetest, must unreactive foal. The first time I saddled her I thought she was going to be a spurs and crop dead head. However under saddle she is forward and sensitive. Still a sweetheart, but not what you would have guessed from on the ground. I would go with a stallion with older offspring demonstrating what you want for the mare’s first foal.

[alexandra]

I did not suggest the W line in first place because in general in combination with great temperament it is not always what I would associate with W line. Exception for me: Wolkentanz I. But maybe not temperament but for sure rideability.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

[QUOTE=alexandra;7768060]
I did not suggest the W line in first place because in general in combination with great temperament it is not always what I would associate with W line. Exception for me: Wolkentanz I. But maybe not temperament but for sure rideability.[/QUOTE]

What popped into my head was Werbellin…maybe too tall?

[Donella]

I think in this case the best thing to do is to look for a stallion that has successfully competed at the advanced level and one that produces similar horses as then you are guaranteed that that stallion is himself sound and good behind, plus that he is able to pass that on. It’s still far from a guarantee but a horse has to be good behind and inherently sound to make to the GP level.

Don Principe is a good suggestion. Belissimo M is one that comes to mind as well.

[back_in_the_saddle]

[QUOTE=Donella;7768267]

Don Principe is a good suggestion. Belissimo M is one that comes to mind as well.[/QUOTE]

But Belissimo M produces a slow hind. I wouldn’t use him if I were looking for an upper level horse. Yes, there have been ‘some’… but IMO I would only breed him to a mare with a good hind to start with.

[Donella]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7769033]
But Belissimo M produces a slow hind. I wouldn’t use him if I were looking for an upper level horse. Yes, there have been ‘some’… but IMO I would only breed him to a mare with a good hind to start with.[/QUOTE]

Weak and slow not the same things. A horse can be somewhat slow behind and still be super strong and well conformed. To top it off, the OP isn’t looking to produce an upper level horse , she is looking for a stallion with a physically strong hind end (which Belissimo M has) that produces ammy friendly temperament and rideability (which Belissimo M does).

Aside from the OP’s goals Belissimo M is a proven sire of top international quality GP horses. He was also that himself so while he might not be a stallion you would use, lots of people have, with much success.

[DownYonder]

I was just about to say the same thing that Donella did about “weak” and “slow” hind legs. A slow-legged horse can still be very strong behind, and have a lot of sit ability. Conversely, a horse that is quick behind may not have the strength to sit and lift.

I agree with the Belissimo suggestion, esp. for the OP. He has a strong hind end, easy temperament and rideability, and is not only a TOP international dressage horse, but also a proven sire of excellent UL horses.

For horses located in NA - Freestyle is also a good suggestion. Good hind ends and great AA minds.

I am also keeping in mind the mare’s pedigree. She is by an Argentan I son. Bon Balou is out of an Argentan I granddaughter. Her dam is a Donnerhall grandaughter. Don Principe is a Donnerhall son. Depending on how you feel about linebreeding on those horses, you may want to rule them out. My concern with Bon Balou is that I am not sure he has enough offspring on the ground and under saddle to make a judgement call as to what rideability he is passing on (aren’t his first offspring only 4 y/o this year? And he is by Balou du Rouet, who as mentioned, can be pretty spicy). And my concern with Don Principe is that the Donnerhall may come through very strongly (a good thing for rideability and work ethic and sit ability), but the offspring may also end up somewhat large and with a lot of substance. He may also pass a TB type of hind end, which isn’t what the OP is looking for with this mare.

[Graymaresrule]

When I think “good engine” and “good brain” I think Irish Draught
www.irishdraught.com