loving dog who can't/won't walk on leash

[BuddyRoo]

For people who are either too small or do not know how to do appropriate corrections with a choke or prong collar, I’m a big fan of the Promise collar or Halti. (the halter type collar)

My (now 10 1/2 YO, 100lb lab) was originally trained with a choke chain but I had a little dog walker who was outweighed by the dog so I put a Halti on him. It was easy for the kid to walk the dog that way.

Since then, I used the same on our SP because there were potentially 4 of us who would be walking dogs and I didn’t want to rely on someone who was untrained to do proper corrections.

Both dogs can be walked with a pinky finger on the leash. Seriously. Even if they were to bolt (and they don’t) as long as you have control of their heads, you’ve got control. No pulling.

I think the Promise or Halti collars are great for those who want to have a peaceful walk and don’t have the timing for other types of training.

[ElisLove]

I always find it very interesting how horse people can be so apposed to mild corrections with dogs and yet GOOD horse people know that using proper corrections on horses is of extreme importance.
It’s incredibly easy to use a training collar for loose leash walking and you don’t ‘painfully yank on the neck’. In my dog trainer’s program we had about 15 dogs we worked with the whole time as well as probably close to 100 dogs we worked with through the various areas of our training. Probably 75% of dogs worked with training collars (the ones that didn’t were small dogs where you can make light effective leash corrections with flat collars). ALL dogs easily learned loose leash walking (and all commands like sit, stay, down, come, heel, distance commands, etc), AND, most importantly, ALL dogs had FUN learning it. The dogs were excited for their training sessions as they got to play and have fun throughout and the mild corrections did not cause them ‘pain’, it was less than a second of not being totally comfortable (like a half halt, where you push the horse more strongly into the hand, then release) then you go back to having fun.

[wendy]

yeah, but there are better ways to train these days. Dogs enjoy clicker training even more than being yanked around. And many breeds simply don’t respond to being yanked on, yet respond brilliantly to motivational training.
I can’t believe anyone in this day and age still trains using collar corrections. And my opinion has nothing to do with PC-ness about “don’t hurt the dog” it’s about EFFECTIVENESS. I’m a very pragmatic trainer- I use the best tools at hand, and collar pops are simply not one of those. If collar pops were the best tool, I’d use them, but they aren’t. I’ve trained dogs with collar pops, and it is the least effective method of training any behavior that I’ve come across.
Plus there is the very disturbing autopsy study showing that dogs trained in chokers- not prongs, chokers- even in the hands of experts suffer serious permanent damage to their necks. Any training method that causes permanent damage to the animal is simply not acceptable.

[ElisLove]

Correctly done collar corrections will not cause neck damage because A. You are not yanking the dog around (remember I said CORRECTLY done) and B. It’s very effective so you do not need to do it over and over and over again. (again CORRECTLY done).
I have seen clicker training fail (my horse HATED clicker training and would tune a person out completely if they tried) and if you have a very high drive dog that loves to chase rabbits or whatever, a little piece of treat is not gonna outweigh it’s desire to chase the rabbit it just saw.

But anyways, I have said my say in this thread and given the OP my advice and that’s all I came here to do. Good luck OP.

[paulaedwina]

Wendy,

I think prongs are just as easily misused as chokes I’m afraid. The dog person I see regularly has a pulling dog she walks on a prong on a flexi.

Paula

[Dr_Doolittle]

Agree with BuddyRoo, Gentle Leader or Halti. Used CORRECTLY and with good timing, it can be transformative.

You will develop a light touch on the leash, will be able to control the dog’s head (and hence, her attention), and “bring her around to you” when needed. Carry treats and reward attention, every time. Have her come back to you periodically (face you and look at you) PRAISE AND TREAT, every time. The key is to release the pressure on the head harness moment the dog gives slack, and the dog will then learn to seek the slack.

Most dogs don’t like them–especially at first–so you will need to ignore the histrionics and distract the dog with enthusiastic praise, treats, and/or a squeaky toy. Always make it a positive experience, and remember to use a light touch, and work on getting attention to you, at which point you praise enthusiastically. If you “load the clicker”, you can wean off treats and “click” on eye contact/attention. Hounds in particular are passive aggressive and tend to tune out on walks and follow their nose, pulling the human along. Any time the dog’s rear end is toward you and she is pulling down and forward and away from you, you don’t have the leadership role; only when you are able to get her to turn towards you and “check in” when asked (reward her for doing this, every time) will you be able to get her to walk politely.

“IF you pull, we don’t go” is helpful, but it takes lots of repetition You can do this (more easily) with a GL or a Halti. Anchor the end of the leash to your hip and walk in the opposite direction from where she is pulling–or at a 45 degree angle; the instant SHE puts slack in the leash and LOOKS AT YOU, give her slack, praise, and continue walking. Rinse repeat…

[Dr_Doolittle]

And flexi leads are the DEVIL!! :mad: :rolleyes:

[paulaedwina]

Flexi leads are the devil!

Paula

[BuddyRoo]

Also agree that flexi leads are the devil.

As far as the clicker training and the other tools, I totally agree with others that they can be GREAT tools! I’m a fan. BUT…when you have a person who just can’t quite get the timing or you have a lot of cooks in the kitchen (for lack of a better phrase) I am a huge fan of the halti/promise.

Even after putting my eldest SD through a training course this summer with our youngest dog, it was evident to me that no one in my family is truly capable (or willing?) to truly learn how to use the tools. I just can’t have someone yanking a dog around or whatever when it’s not necessary. So I’m all for taking the easy road IF that’s what makes sense for the dog.

[Bicoastal]

I’ll add, because I haven’t seen it posted, use “take a break” and “go sniff” releases. She is a hound. And use food! It’ll be interesting to learn which she more highly values “go sniff” or focus for food.

[Simbalism]

The lady I train with for obedience suggests the Gentle Leader for dogs that pull. Most dogs don’t like it at first, but it definitely does help. My dog has never really pulled so she started in a halter as a pup and then progressed to a martingale collar for training. When we are not training, she wears a flat collar. Good luck with your dog.

[wendy]

agree that any tool can be mis-used- I’ve even seen someone chase a dog around with a clicker using it as punishment because the dog didn’t like the noise it made.

But the autopsy study was pretty definitive- experts giving proper collar pops on choker collars causes permanent neck damage. End of story.

Besides, anyone who has watched the difference in effectiveness between motivational training vs. collar yanking goes for the motivational training. It works better.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=ElisLove;7289261]
I always find it very interesting how horse people can be so apposed to mild corrections with dogs and yet GOOD horse people know that using proper corrections on horses is of extreme importance.
It’s incredibly easy to use a training collar for loose leash walking and you don’t ‘painfully yank on the neck’. [/QUOTE]

I agree. The opposite of positive reinforcement is not necessarily painful punishment.

We work with a hunting trainer that is able to teach heel within one or two sessions…He CAN yank the dog off his feet, but he doesn’t have to. Even with a flat hunting collar, you can administer a “pop” and a loud command of “HEEL”. Some dogs are easier than others, but it’s pretty easy to get the message across. And then lots of praise when the dog heels.

Start in the driveway, going back and forth - this is not a walk, it’s a training session. And you don’t leave the driveway until the dog will heel for you. Even better if you do it 3-4 times a day for five minutes. Then move into the lawn, or on a sidewalk and only go a few feet either way until the dog is consistently heeling. And expand from there.

If you can pair this with clicker, food reward, and/or other forms of discouragement when the dog doesn’t heel (change directions, step in front, stop moving), it’s going to be even easier and faster.

Some dogs are easy pleasers, and others aren’t. While I don’t encourage yanking any dog off its feet because I don’t want to injure it or have to pay for the chiro adjustment, I am not concerned at all with breaking my very confident and boisterous dog’s spirit with correction. A mild, meek or fearful dog? Then of course I might choose a different approach.

[Finding_Serenity]

Our pup is a year and a half and LOVES smelling things/chasing (“hunting”) bunnies and can be very independent and single minded when she wants something (shiba/gsd mix). While we are still working on training, the puppy trainer gave us some great tools to try to use. We also use a body harness on her because she does love to pull and will ignore throat collars/face harness but respects the body harness (it gives us leverage on HER).

On the lead as soon as she starts to pull turn in the other direction. To start, we also taught a voice command of “let’s go” in junction with this in the parking lot where the trainer had us work. As soon as they changed direction with us, they were treated. Mostly it was the beginnings of teaching heel, but it works very well if she starts tuning me out. Unfortunately we still have yet to translate this to off leash :eyeroll:

Now, If she starts to pull rather than her usual “roaming on the loose lead”, I just say “Let’s go” and change direction. She still occasionally gets yanked because she wasn’t paying attention to me but only needs to be checked once or twice. She comes running up to me then and I will praise her, walk a few steps, and head back the way we came (again with “Let’s Go!”) with a loose lead. She almost never pulls now, has a “half decent” heel (she’s very independent and impatient, it’s something we are working on) as she doesn’t know the direction where we are going next.

Again it’s not 100%, if we are going someplace she loves (dog park, petco, lowes, etc) she tends to need a LOT of checks and balances (it is getting better!) but at her age we’re really happy with how quickly she’s picked up on everything.

[IFG]

OK, I have a unique perspective. I do a lot of training with my dogs, including agility, but they each weigh about 63 pounds, and I was walking them together this summer, and they pulled me over (going after another dog while I was walking them together) resulting in a very badly broken foot.

Both my dogs hate the head halters, and I try to use non-aversive approaches, but I am little, and I DO NOT want to break something else, so I compromised on the Sporn harness: http://www.jefferspet.com/sporn-non-pulling-mesh-harness/p/0031149/

It is very effective. At the same time, I have started walking them separately, and working on rewarding loose leash walking and attention on me with a click and treat. Any pulling results in me standing still or changing direction. Great tips at the link below:

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/15_10/features/Training-Loose-Leash-Walking_20624-1.html

I also play attention games. Any time they look at me, they get a click and treat. I can stand a long time to wait for that look. Without attention on me, they go nowhere. I started this based on my agility trainer’s suggestion. I practice off leash too. I move, they follow, click and I drop a treat. They learn pretty quickly that you are the magic treat machine and paying attention yields big dividends.

I am not walking them together again until I have their attention on a consistent basis.

[IFG]

Forgot to add, Flexi leashes are the devil!

[S1969]

[QUOTE=IFG;7293427]
Forgot to add, Flexi leashes are the devil![/QUOTE]

I love flexi-leashes. I must be the only one. But I don’t “walk” my dogs on Flexis, I exercise them when I can’t let them loose. Maybe that’s the difference. I don’t have to walk my dogs at home; we have a fenced yard, and they also get at least two out of the yard off leash runs/day.

But I do like to train heel because we often have to be in various places where they do need to be walked on leashes.

[Lazy_Palomino_Hunter]

Generally speaking, I hate flexis. It’s not because the tool is inherently bad, it’s because people suck at training their dogs.

My sheltie has a flexi and a 6’ leather leash. I taught him “criteria” for walking…
Criteria 1 - if there’s a loop in the leash, it is his job to walk politely either next to me or slightly behind. If he hits the end, he must return to me, sit at my side, and look at me. A looped leash might be the leather leash, or it might be the flexi “locked” to a short-ish length.
Criteria - if the leash has passive, following pressure (i.e. a typical flexi), he may walk wherever he wants while it is still following. If he hits the end of the leash and the pressure is no longer following him (either because I locked it or he went too far), he must stop what he is doing and return to a sit at my side.

Most people use flexis as a quick-fix for making a dog more tolerable despite not knowing how to walk on a leash. This is why flexis get a bad rap… because many dogs on flexis are out-of-control lunatics with no obedience training (and possibly an owner to believes it should be treated like a human child in a furry suit, not an animal). Not ALL dogs on flexis are terrible, obviously, but it does seem to be an unsettling proportion.

OP, your best friend is going to be consistency. NEVER GIVE IN TO PULLING. Start practicing in your living room. Sit a smelly, tasty treat on the floor and hold your dog on a leash on the other side of the room. Take a step toward the treat. If the dog doesn’t pull, great, take another step. If he does pull, stop and take a step backward. Make it clear that the ONLY way he can get to the treat is if you take him there… and that if he pulls, it is counterproductive for where he wants to go.

When he does this perfectly in the living room, branch out to the backyard. Then to the sidewalk in front of the house. Try it with people he wants to greet and things he wants to smell in lieu of treats.

If he doesn’t care about food on walks, have him skip a meal and take him out with something super smelly and tasty like liver. If he is hungry enough and you have something that is tasty enough, he will pay attention to food.

OR, use approach to anything he wants (including smelling something) as his reward. That will make it easy for you, as you let him choose his most valued reward.

You may have to take a period of 2-3 weeks where you never get to exercise him on a leash because you can’t move more than 10’, so it would behoove you to think of an alternate way to exercise him off leash while you are putting basic leash skills on him. This is where many people falter, I think.

If pulling is never ever rewarding, and if pulling ALWAYS results in retreat from what he is trying to get to, he will stop pulling.

[andreab]

It sounds like you need a good, positive trainer to work with you and your dog one-on-one. Dogs don’t have to pull, they can be trained not to pull. It does not take a choke collar or prong collar to teach them this. If you need to use something other than a flat collar for control, look into a no-pull harness (Freedom is the best one, per Whole Dog Journal). Teaching your dog to not pull takes consistency. It takes getting him/her to look at you (what IFG calls attention games). It takes practice.