Low Down and Round is *not* rollkur

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=caddym;4657345]
This was NOT started by Sjef. I have heard it was first widely used (and still is) by showjumpers. The first dressage rider to obtain significant notarity for this method was the GERMAN Nicole Uphoff with Rembrandt.[/QUOTE]

She did use it but not in such sever form as Sjef Janssen developed it. I don’t remember her horses noses touching their chest, necks completely closed for a very long time?

Sjef Janssen took old “rollkur” to an extreme called it “hyperflexion” and then renamed it to “Long Deep and Round” aka LDR. Now the “Long Deep and Round” name is so close to the so called “Deep Method”, than some riders are confusing “Long Deep and Round” Method with “Deep Method”!

Some of the difference between Deep and rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion is the release of the reins for a horse to stretch out. Deep is “inviting” a horse to a rounder position and releasing it when horse doesn’t want to be there. rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion is “holding” with force a horse in the most extreme hyperflexion and NOT releasing it even if the horse wants to stretch out.

FEI quote:

At all paces, slight mobility of the jaw, without nervousness, is the guarantee of submission and the harmonious distribution of forces"

Another words, when a horse’s mouth has enough freedom to chew a little bit = that shows that rider has a frank connection with the horse. That a rider doesn’t just hold the horse in the frame by force. What we see with rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion are horses that are clearly HELD in positions of force by rider’s hands and reins = horses who can not even move slightly their jaws from the steel grip on their mouths.

In rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion horse doesn’t have a chance for 2 way communication with his rider. Horse doesn’t have a voice. There is no honest conversation or connection thru the reins and bit.

And what is one of the goals of dressage? = It is the honest connection from rider’s hands to the horse’s mouth to establish a frank communication.

In rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion there is no such thing! One of the main goals of dressage is cut out by forcefully holding horse’s head in the hyper flexed extremely deep frame for prolonged periods of time.

It is very important to know the correct verbiage for a clear communications. Dressage has lots of nuances and it saddens me that it seems that Sjef Janssen got the results that he wanted to get with several name changes of rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion = now some people don’t even understand what to call what and what they are arguing about.

[Dressage_Art]

Sjef Janssen took old “rollkur” to an extreme called it “hyperflexion” and then renamed it to “Long Deep and Round” aka LDR. Now the “Long Deep and Round” name is so close to the so called “Deep Method”, than some riders are confusing “Long Deep and Round” Method with “Deep Method”!

Below is Anky van Grunsven riding in rollkur/Long Deep and Round/LDR/hyperflexion and coached by Sjef Janssen who developed that method to extreme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmnHm9tQg&feature=channel
Anky’s students also riding in rollkur/Long Deep and Round/LDR/hyperflexion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5pH5CEoZks&feature=related

It is very important to know the correct verbiage for a clear communications. Dressage has lots of nuances and it saddens me that it seems that Sjef Janssen got the results that he wanted to get with several name changes of rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion = now some people don’t even understand what to call what and what they are arguing about.

[Dressage_Art]

Some of the difference between Deep and rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion is the release of the reins for a horse to stretch out. Deep is “inviting” a horse to a rounder position and releasing it when horse doesn’t want to be there. rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion is “holding” with force a horse in the most extreme hyperflexion and NOT releasing it even if the horse wants to stretch out.

FEI quote:

At all paces, slight mobility of the jaw, without nervousness, is the guarantee of submission and the harmonious distribution of forces"

Another words, when a horse’s mouth has enough freedom to chew a little bit = that shows that rider has a frank connection with the horse. That a rider doesn’t just hold the horse in the frame by force. What we see with rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion are horses that are clearly HELD in positions of force by rider’s hands and reins = horses who can not even move slightly their jaws from the steel grip on their mouths.

In rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion horse doesn’t have a chance for 2 way communication with his rider. Horse no longer has a voice. There is no honest conversation or connection thru the reins and bit. It’s not longer a partner or an athlete, but a trained animal that may belong in the circus - not among the athletes.

And what is one of the goals of dressage? = It is the honest connection from rider’s hands to the horse’s mouth to establish a frank communication.

In rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion there is no such thing! One of the main goals of dressage is cut out by forcefully holding horse’s head in the hyper flexed extremely deep frame for prolonged periods of time.

We have to ask ourselves where/what is the difference between an athlete, a partner and a difference of a trained circus animal, even if it’s a very well trained circus animal?

[egontoast]

Sjef Janssen took old “rollkur” to an extreme called it “hyperflexion” and then renamed it to “Long Deep and Round” aka LDR.

I think you are making that up but please feel free to prove me wrong.

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=wbhorseusa;4656870]
This is driving me crazy listening to the crazy people out there who are thinking that low down (or long down) and round is the same as rollkur.

Here is a video of Steffan Peters warming up Ravel in low down and round.

http://www.barnmice.com/video/steffan-peters-and-ravel-warm

Rollkur is when the horses chin is literally hitting the horses under neck. Low down round is a very common and helpful method to warm up a horse.

It is extremely important to differentiate something that is helpful to a horse vs something that is destructive to a horse.[/QUOTE]

I see you’ve asked Catherine about Low, Down and Round in her blog. I’ve spoken to her and she has made a video blog showing what she considers low, down and round which is not RK. I’m sure it will be posted on her blog in the next few days.

[rodawn]

I have to say, that video of Steffan is my favorite, simply because the horse was being asked to move quite forwards with a reaching stride working from behind and over his back. He was long and low but still through from behind over his back.

Someone commented about switching tail and whatever. That’s the whole point of WARMUP. To work those things out. The switching tail could be due to anything - a bit of stall stiffness, travel stiffness, some anxiety at new surroundings, who knows. A well done warmup is what works out those things and the horse becomes more relaxed and able to concentrate on the real work at hand. And the rider is allowed a bit of lee-way too - HE needs to get warmed up too, you know. Anyone who has ridden the number of years he has will no doubt have stiff back and tight pelvis until he, himself, has a chance to get moving and work it out. I know I certainly do. It takes me a good 30 minutes of warmup before everything’s working properly and my horse at least 40 minutes and then we settle into real work. Hard to criticize a horse and rider during warmup when warmup’s purpose is trying to loosen and limber up in order to achieve the embodiment of perfection for the judge.

When working a lot in Grand Prix, there is a lot of collection especially for the pirouettes and piaffe, which is achieved via being very seriously collected, and which develops hard short muscles, not only through the neck but also under the belly and across the back. It is very important to do a lot of long and low to keep the muscles stretched. Steffan happens to be my most favorite rider, trainer and coach of all time. I would really like to get a clinic organized with him coming up here in 2011.

I personally will also ride a lot of deep long and low as long as the horse is still working through and over the back. When we’ve been working in a lot of collection, I will even let the horse go with his nose right to the ground, as much as he asks for at the trot, even the canter - a total stretch out - and then work back into the long and low (always keeping the throat latch open!), and then progressively upwards to collection. I’ve ridden and trained this way for 30 years!

Rollkur is with the chin plastered to the chest. It is tight, hard, and very difficult for the horse to breathe. Long and low offers a lengthened stretching but the wind pipe has full freedom and the throat latch is still open. If you were to ask a horse to halt while maintaining the long and low position, you could easily wiggle the wind pipe with your hand and fit your hand into the throatlatch. In rollkur position, the throat latch nearly disappears, and the top and underside of the neck is so tight, there’s no moving or wiggling anything.

[ThreeFigs]

Thanks, OP, for the Peters/Ravel video. Yes, that is beautiful deep & round work. As others have said, however, even this positioning was indeed controversial several years ago, considered by many to be a Mortal Sin Against Dressage.

I think back in those days, it was a confusion between a horse “on contact” but behind the vertical and a horse behind the vertical AND behind the bit. The arguments about it were as heated as these RK arguments are now.

Bluey made good observations in a parallel thread regarding (human) gymnastics and (human) hyperlfexion and the differences between gymnastic performance 50 years ago versus today. Dressage horses bred for the sport today have also changed from what was available 50 years ago. Generally speaking, more light and supple.

Might that have something to do with the acceptance of “deep” riding (the “good kind”, not the abusive extreme!) which was so controversial a few years ago? Now we have horses that can more easily accomodate that “good” low/deep/round position shown by Ravel in the video?

Just a thought.

[Karoline]

I do not like it very much but the difference is that I would not work actively to ban it because I dont see it as abusive to the horse. And yes, you can thank rollkur for making Deep ok.

[egontoast]

And yes, you can thank rollkur for making Deep ok.

Ok with whom?

To use your words from another thread - who "fed’ you that?

I wonder if Steffen and Ulla, Jane savoie, etc, all checked in with the bulletin boards first to see if it was Ok for them to use deep training.

[PiaffePlease]

The only way that I can see people confusing the two is if they are just seeing that the horse is slightly behind the vertical. Ravel is obviously loose and not crammed into a frame like rolkur does. Just look at the curb rein, its very loose.

[eventer_mi]

@PiaffePlease;4658100

The only way that I can see people confusing the two is if they are just seeing that the horse is slightly behind the vertical. Ravel is obviously loose and not crammed into a frame like rolkur does. Just look at the curb rein, its very loose.

Now I’m very confused And admittedly, I’m just a 1st level ignoramus :winkgrin:, but I always thought the difference was that LDR done correctly would show no wrinkles of the skin at the base of the neck, and that if you looked at the angle of the throatlatch, it should be obtuse, not acute. For example, if you took Ravel, rotated his neck so that it was up higher, the angle behind the throatlatch would still remain quite open and he’d be in front of the vertical. If you took one of the commonly posted pics of “rolkur gone wrong”, and then rotated the neck, the angle in the throatlatch would still be acute, and you’d probably see wrinkles at the wither junction.

Am I way off?

[egontoast]

I know what you mean about tipping the silhouette ( I remember an article by Jane Savoie several years ago which talked about that) but I don’t think anyone has any difficulty distinguishing the extreme positioning from the slightly deep positioning.

In the real world, though, and in the warmups, for example, I think you’ll see more of a continuum of positioning, not an either/or situation.

Not so easy to draw a line when it’s somewhere in between the extremes.

PS if jane Savoie is reading this ,do you remember an article you wrote called “should you ride your horse deep?” or something like that? it was in Dressage and CT I think and was slightly radical at the time as people were all excited about ‘deep’ riding and insisting the poll must always be at the highest point and nose must never be behind the vertical.

[nhwr]

At the risk of having this thread spontaneously combust, I think SP is doing what AvG (and probably most successful riders) does. That being - riding a horse deep and round, as well as using lateral flexions while the horse is in motion to promote balance and cadence. SP is subtler about it. But the underlying principles are the same.

Of course, SP is isn’t going call what he does rolkur.
That would make him a horse abuser :eek: :rolleyes:

[system]

[QUOTE=nhwr;4659850]
At the risk of having this thread spontaneously combust, I think SP is doing what AvG (and probably most successful riders) does. That being - riding a horse deep and round, as well as using lateral flexions while the horse is in motion to promote balance and cadence. SP is subtler about it. But the underlying principles are the same.

Of course, SP is isn’t going call what he does rolkur.
That would make him a horse abuser :eek: :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Riders calls it LDR, but it’s just another word for Hyperflexian or Rollkür. All topriders use it :yes::yes: when they need it.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=EQFerrari;4659903]
Riders calls it LDR, but it’s just another word for Hyperflexian or Rollkür. All topriders use it :yes::yes: when they need it.[/QUOTE]

thanks theo for saying it loud and clear.

[system]

[QUOTE=mbm;4659943]
thanks theo for saying it loud and clear.[/QUOTE]

MBM you are getting paranoid.

I am not Theo, but I love his website, and when your read the scientific reports you will understand that there is no difference. SP rides LDR, Anky rides Rollkür hahahahahaha

[mbm]

nhwr - i actually agree with you… and like Karoline said - the fact that we are bombarded with images of rollkur, what SP is doing looks failry benign.

i dont “believe” in what he is doing either… and think the nose btv is the problem, not the low neck. the back isnt stretched with the nose btv… that is why they need to put the neck so round - to get any traction at all.

again, it is all just physics that the ODGs knew about … hence the idea that the horse needs to stay as a rule in front of th vertical based on where the horse is in its training. (eta, going btv from loss of balance is not what i am talking about… i am talking about where the rider puts the horse)

the difference between SP and Anky et al is that SP is at least soft. Anky et al is hard, aggressive etc.

[Melyni]

If you want the rules changed

Then you are going to have to define rollur/hyperflexion in words, as the rule book cannot show videos!
So instead of using a video to demonstrate what you mean you need to put it into words.

IMHO it’s all a matter of degree the degree used will depend in part on the type and temperment of the horse and the rider/trainer.

You might be able to ‘ban’ some degree of hyperflexion in the warm-up at shows but you cannot regulate what goes on at home.
As long as the hyperflexion/rollkur users get the results that they get it will continue, because despite everything the naysayers claim, it does do what it is supposed to do, namely get the horse to pay attention to the rider exclusively and to work over the back.

One man’s deep and round is anothers rollkur.

MW

[fburton]

@Melyni;4660097

Then you are going to have to define rollur/hyperflexion in words, as the rule book cannot show videos!
So instead of using a video to demonstrate what you mean you need to put it into words.

Agreed, though I don’t see why a definitive video couldn’t be made available as “supplementary material” as is now the practice in some scientific journals.

(By the way… I presume you’re the same Melyni who used to post really interesting stuff to uk-riders, snaffle and eurohorse all those years ago? Hope life is treating you well! Francis)

[nhwr]

So who are the ones who “bombard” us with images of rolkur?