Low Down and Round is not rollkur

wbhorseusa · August 12, 2020, 12:03am

This is driving me crazy listening to the crazy people out there who are thinking that low down (or long down) and round is the same as rollkur.

Here is a video of Steffan Peters warming up Ravel in low down and round.

http://www.barnmice.com/video/steffan-peters-and-ravel-warm

Rollkur is when the horses chin is literally hitting the horses under neck. Low down round is a very common and helpful method to warm up a horse.

It is extremely important to differentiate something that is helpful to a horse vs something that is destructive to a horse.

claire · August 20, 2020, 2:35am

Visual Definition of Deep vs RK/HF

I am glad you brought this up on a new thread…
(I hesitate to even venture onto the other RK/LDR threads to ask a question) :eek:

I have always understood deep to be the Steffan Peters video:http://www.barnmice.com/video/steffa…and-ravel-warm

or Carl Hester: video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbk7HWtQWbM

And rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion to be:

Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw

Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmn...eature=channel

Patrik Kittel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4

mbm · August 20, 2020, 2:35am

(thank you)

Dressage_Art · August 20, 2020, 2:35am

[QUOTE=claire;4656886]
I have always understood deep to be the Steffan Peters video:http://www.barnmice.com/video/steffa…and-ravel-warm
or Carl Hester: video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbk7HWtQWbM

And rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion to be:
Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw
Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmn...eature=channel
Patrik Kittel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4[/QUOTE]

Yes.
Carl Hester and Steffan Peters are Deep Method that was practiced for many ages.

Anky and Patrik Kittel are rollkur that got renamed to LDR or hyperflexion and now has 3 names (rollkur, LDR and hyperflexion) That method, originally named rollkur, was started by Sjef Janssen.

and yes they are quite different and it “is helpful to a horse vs something that is destructive to a horse.”

Karoline · August 20, 2020, 2:35am

Misinformation.

The term Low Deep Round was first used by Sjef Jansen as far back as 2001.

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/schrijer.php

If you dont believe sustainabledressage, just do a search for the magazine articles.

It started as LDR, then the german called it sarcastically rollkur. That upset the riders who practiced it and it was rebaptised Hyperflexion. That has now gotten a bad name and we are back to LDR and trying to distance from rollkur.

It takes very little effort to do the research. And it is important to do.

This kind of manipulation of language is called Doublespeak. And is a basic form of information manipulation or propaganda. It is fascinating to see it used in an arena like dressage since it is usually political in nature. But then this is all about money and showbiz and interest. Not horses. So, it makes sense I suppose.

Professor William Lutz, author of The New Doublespeak, notes:

Doublespeak is language that pretends to communicate but really doesn’t. It is
language that makes the bad seem good, the negative appear positive, the
unpleasant appear attractive or at least tolerable. Doublespeak is language
that avoids or shifts responsibility, language that is at variance with its real or
purported meaning. It is language that conceals or prevents thought; rather
than extending thought, doublespeak limits it.
It is true, of course, that dishonesty has always been a part of the human experience, but doublespeak is a pernicious variation of dishonesty. Doublespeak perverts the basic function of language, which is to facilitate a
common understanding between human beings.

Oh, and I have seen Edward Gal warmup and he was rollkuring, nothing subtil about it.

naturalequus · August 20, 2020, 2:35am

Thanks! The LDR portion was actually very lovely to watch!! Though I was not so keen on the loud legs and the (likely associated?) switching tail, the horse was relaxed and the rider’s hand were light light light. You could see the soft contact by the lack of tension from bit to hand. The horse was clearly loose and supple. What a beautiful example wbhorseusa!

Karoline · August 20, 2020, 2:35am

What you like is called Deep.

LDR is rollkur. You must have me on ignore, I just gave you the history of LDR. It cannot be two things at the same time, or dressed up to be made more palatable.

I used to be anti-deep but the LDR/Rollkur/Hyperflexion have made me much more tolerant. And, while I would never ride with a deep trainer, I never thought it should be banned.

naturalequus · August 20, 2020, 2:36am

If you are referring to me, no, I do not have you on ignore, Karoline

Well then, ‘deep’ was lovely. I saw low, deep, and round in the horse, which is why I assumed the definition was correct I hope I do not foresee an argument of definitions now.

For all the ‘histories’ and definitions running around this board though, I am a little confused as to what to ‘label’ these positions. Honestly, I really do not care what it is called I guess, just how these positions are used and how it affects the horse (which does not require a ‘name’). Call it what you (not ‘you’ in a specific sense) want, it remains what it is regardless of the name given it. Of course this makes for more difficult conversation when everyone seems to have a differing definition, but I think we can still debate constructively with varied definitions, provided we each define the position we are referring to sigh this is all so confusing.

I would not advocate for the banning of deep - what is posted in the video above. The horse was loose and supple, the rider’s hands soft and free of tension. I would not ‘place’ a horse there (that is just not how I operate), however I would certainly encourage my horses to carry themselves there (through patterns) and allow them to stretch out as like, in a warm-up. When I initially warm up my horses on a loose rein, they carry themselves in a variety of positions, from long and low to deep, naturally, on their own. When I feel they have sufficiently stretched themselves and are sufficiently warmed up, then I am free to pick up my reins a little. Just how I do things though.

Karoline · August 20, 2020, 2:36am

the mouth of the horse accepting the bit

I am just saying that there is already terminology for what you like: Deep. Because LDR is rollkur/Hyperflexion there is a bad potential for confusion.

This is what they call LDR. Please read the explanations. My reaction -This horse Really? REALLY? I have saved the pic and analysis for history’s sake.
This my friend, is an example of the best LDR work according to them.

http://www.facebook.com/#/photo.php?pid=30505592&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=285476607441&aid=-1&id=1116986895&fbid=1206210231533

Most of the best riders and trainers in the world use today LOW DEEP AND ROUND in different forms every day in their training.

Here we see Anky Van Grunsven in a half deep POWERFUL attitude, with a galop full of punch, uphill and yet loose outline. BRAVO !

Notice :

the mouth of the horse accepting the bit -
the hands of the rider receiving the power from the hinglegs in a perfect match, not taking too much, not giving too much
and the upperlip of the horse, pointing down in satistfaction and joy of a work welldone for his whole body… one of my favorite photos !

Thank you Anky, and thank you Sjef, for the research of the perfection of these modern technics… this is just the BEST that has happened to the horses, and the riders, since man took the decision to put himself on the back of the horses !

claire · August 20, 2020, 2:36am

Having Clear Definitions IS Important

And critical to any productive further research and discussions.
Could we agree on this point?

And could we agree for further discussion purposes that:
1.) Deep = The S.Peter’s or C.Hester’s videos.

2.) RK/LDR/Hyperflexion=The Anky or P.Kittel videos

I think this would be the starting point to any discussion.

Karoline · August 20, 2020, 2:36am

I agree. But I will also say that it is what is seen in these videos but not necessarily reflective of these riders work all of the time. I think some riders are getting wiser to cameras.

claire · August 20, 2020, 2:36am

OK Karoline, but for discussion purposes, first, shouldn’t the terms be clearly visually defined?

Be that the photo/video is a moment in time or looped.

And with the understanding we are trying to define two ends of a continuem?

Deep>>>>>>>>RK/LDR/Hyperflexion.

fburton · August 20, 2020, 2:36am

Looks kinda ugly to me.

and the upperlip of the horse, pointing down in satistfaction and joy of a work welldone for his whole body

boggle!

egontoast · August 20, 2020, 2:36am

A few years ago the riders identified as riding"deep" above would have been crucified on the bulletin boards.

There were just as many threads and trainwrecks then about BTV and even the mildest of deep training as there are now about rollkur.

Interesting.

Bluey · August 20, 2020, 2:36am

[QUOTE=egontoast;4657044]
A few years ago the riders identified as riding"deep" above would have been crucified on the bulletin boards.

There were just as many threads and trainwrecks then about BTV and even the mildest of deep training as there are now about rollkur.

Interesting.[/QUOTE]

You are right, many years ago, BTV was a cardinal sin and the worst evasion you may let a horse learn.

Now, they will say RK/Deep, whatever is NOT BTV.
Wich is true, it can be, it may be, but it doesn’t has to be.
Today’s RK enhaced flexibility permits deep to still be on the bit, with the right kind of skills and strong seat.
That is a big difference as a technique that may enhace a horse’s athleticism and flexibility, with pure BTV being a disuniting evasion.
Hyperflexion is a well known, safe technique in all sports, here applied to horses.
This is just theories, I am not convinced it is so, but think it may be.:yes:

Now, we still have the other questions of, is any of the deep continuum, from a little to extreme RK acceptable or abuse?
Should any lines be drawn for it’s use and where?

egontoast · August 20, 2020, 2:36am

Also, in reference to this topic, doublespeak works both ways.

Definitions are subjective and often have an agenda behind them no matter what the perspective.

There is a continuum and drawing a line is not so simple as some would have us believe.

How round is too round.

How long is too long (which reminds me of old non PC joke).

slc2 · August 20, 2020, 2:36am

It doesn’t matter that much, how a word was used before. It matters what the rider is doing.

Anyone can call anything anything. Names for things like rollkur revolve around emotions and social momentum, not information.

The summary version is this:

1.) Some people practice an extreme positioning of the dressage horse in warmup.

2.) Others practice a much more mild positioning of the dressage horse in warmup.

In Steffan’s work the neck of the horse is much longer and looser. It is a very different kind of work from what the others can be seen doing. The neck is lowered, but it is long.

I find it disturbing that some people can’t tell the difference. It says to me that they need some assistance and some training. There is a big, big difference between this and what we see in some other riders. The reins are obviously very loose, and the neck is very long.

I don’t feel the reins NEED to be dangling like that. The slack can be out of the rein and still have the lightest touch on the reins. Whether the reins are dangling or held very softly without slack, the difference is obvious in how the neck muscles are playing and flexing and stretching.

If there’s an insulting name, a derisive name for something, no one is going to refer to what they themselves do with that term. People at various times, have referred to the ‘extreme position’ as LDR, deep, ‘stretching’, etc.

I think that it might be good to use some sort of standardization here on this bb.

I think the term rollkur is useless. I think the term hyperflexion is useless, by this time.

People MAKE terms useless by using them for so many different things. Here on this bb, the group as a whole will not agree as to what terms mean. A term becomes so muddied and full of ‘connotation’ to each person, that the terms have to be abandoned.

I think the terms ‘slight positioning’ and ‘extreme positioning’ are more useful, but only if people will come to some agreement here that ‘slight positioning’ is the example of Steffen Peters, and ‘extreme positioning’ is example of some of the most extreme pictures of Anky van Grunsven or Pat Kittel.

But there is much more difference between what Peters does and what van Grunsven does, than just the amount of positioning of the neck. The whole look and feel is different. The rider has a different position and way of riding. van Grunsven takes her lower leg forward, Peters uses a more classical position.

Some of the ‘awful pictures’ of the more despised riders are moments when the horse is playing up or running off. I think those pictures have catered to a lot of emotions, but I think they should be left out of the discussion. Most horses look bad at the moment when they are bolting or playing up and the rider is just attempting to stop them or ride it out and stay in the plate.

I’m not suggesting this because I am a lover of putting the horse’s neck into a pretzel. I’m suggesting it because the discussion becomes so ridiculous.

blackhorse6 · August 20, 2020, 2:36am

[QUOTE=slc2;4657072]
It doesn’t matter that much, how a word was used before. It matters what the rider is doing.