Low front European stalls-- horses jumping out?

[mvp]

I’m building the barn I want (at long last) and I love the look of the low front European stalls. But they are expensive and, having been po’ folks who worked for lots of people in various barns for a long time, I can visualize lots of horse disasters. In particular, I can see these lovely, inviting stall fronts daring a horse to hand someone his beer while he tries to jump out. I ask everyone who has these or might know (including the manufacturers) if they have seen this kind of carnage. No one says they have.

And so I turn to COTH, my wider and trusted data base with this question. Have any of you seen horses try to exit these low-fronted stalls? Any other bad results from them? (Blankets won’t be hung by them.)

For those of you who haven’t seen these stall fronts, check out the Kensington series on this website. See the curved design with the low door or the newer, more elegant version of that with the circular “swoop” line in front.*

http://www.heritageequineequip.com/kensington-stalls.html

• You know we have tried to teach jumpers and eventers to navigate this shape of fence! And stalls will be 12x12 in a center-aisle barn, so there’s not a line of sight that says “come hither” to an ambitious or desperately angry escape artist.

[spacytracy]

They ARE absolutely gorgeous. We are in the process of building our barn and I immediately thought of them. Escaping wasn’t really a thought.

The thing(s) that made me ultimately decide not to were:

• Even though the horses I have currently are sweethearts, my future horses could be nippy jerks
• In my area, upon surveying friends, most would not want this type of stall so for resale value
• When they eat their hay they hang their heads over and make a mess
• They can reach over and take halters/ off the doors

I compromised and got the yoke style door. then they can hang their heads out but if I have a meanie face I can close it.

[Abbie.S]

Well, I’ve seen a horse try to jump out of a stall where the partition/door was MUCH higher than that…so in my experience it’s less about the height being inviting and more about the particular horse trying to make the leap.

I will say that I have found more open stalls to be much less motivating for horses to try and leave. If they are going to try and leave, they are likely to do so no matter what, but open sight lines, lots of airflow and the ability to see and interact to some degree with neighbors is usually better at keeping the vast majority of horses content in confinement.

[endlessclimb]

This is exactly why I dislike dutch doors. Too many horses are buddy sour whackos. I prefer yokes, though I’m sure if a horse was dumb enough, they’d try to go through those, too.

[beowulf]

I have worked in several barns with that kind of stall front. Thankfully, I have had no issues with horses trying to jump out… but…

I disliked it strongly because even with wide aisles it was always a feat of bravery to lead horses by those who wanted to hang their head over the stall. Turnout was always a mess - I would usually start from beginning of the barn back (rather than from closest paddock forward). As much as I love the open front concept, I don’t think all horses do. Even the more affable types were prone to stall aggression when you were leading horses by.

We also had to be judicious about which horse[s] were at the front of the barn where most of the action was These were all show horses as it was a competition barn, but many of them were unhappy being in such a “busy” area, and settled down and were much quieter if they weren’t in the center of things. I found it to be a Catch-22 - sometimes, the increased visibility made horses more nervous.

The other thing on top of converting the barn aisle into “The Gauntlet” is, it was really a PITA when it came to keeping things near the stall doors. A lot of the horses would chuck their blankets and halters off of the bars… and, it made feeding rather annoying because there was no easy way to dump grain - you had to go into the stall to do so, or reach over one of the arches and run the risk of spilling grain.

But, if this was for your own private home… I could see the attraction. If it wasn’t a barn that was busy and requiring much coming and going down the barn aisle, it’d be a consideration in my own personal barn too. I’ve wanted a barn with “Windsor” style features for a long time. The first image here is exactly how I would have my own personal barn if I had the means.

[NaturalSelection]

I have seen a buddy sour mare jump out of the stall front you describe into a 12’ paved aisle when her friend was taken away, but she was an extreme case.

[mydogs]

My biggest issue with these types of stalls are the horses that like to bit. My last barn had metal yolk gates and a normal stall door so thankfully if one of the biting horses would not keep his head in his stall and was biting the horses & humans walking by, we could close the door. If we didn’t have that door to fully close, I’m not quite sure what we would have done.

They are beautiful and I think if I had a small barn of my own personal horses and the layout of the barn was just right, I would probably consider it.

[PaddockWood]

I have a friend with a big guy (17.3) on stall rest set up with round pen panels off his stall and do you know he bucked and got his back legs hung up over those high panels? Emergency getting them taken apart and down. Crazy what they get themselves into.

[wsmoak]

Nope. If I’ve got a horse confined, I want 8’ of horsey jail. Nobody needs their head sticking out in the aisle unless I’m nearby and have the door open with a stall guard in place.

The only time I’d consider it is for a “show barn” housing sales prospects, where I’d want buyers to be able to walk by and interact with the horses and see them without bars in the way. But it would be for presentation, not daily use. And is not likely to happen in my lifetime.

[fordtraktor]

I have something similar except a bit higher in my new barn. It absolutely could be an issue with some horses, but I haven’t had any problems and love the stalls. I also have an older barn with traditional stalls. Being in the new barn is a privilege, not a right and ill-behaved will be downgraded. I wouldn’t put the buddy sour pair of retirees in the new stalls, for example. They don’t get open Dutch doors either.

mine are these so a little taller than yours: https://saratogastalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/stall13_lg.jpg

[YankeeLawyer]

I have european stall fronts. Before building our barn, I had some concerns expressed here about the possibility of horses being able to jump out or just being a nuisance (nipping or whatnot at passersby). But we have not had any problems and I am very happy with them. Our fronts are 5 feet at their lowest point, which helps (and the finished stall flooring, including mats, is 4 inches lower than the aisle / curb supporting the fronts). As a result, even my 17 hand mare can only just put her head over the front (and can’t reach far into the aisle). For reference, I attached photos of this mare as well as one of my pony (14.1) showing their size relative to the stall fronts.

I should probably mention that the stalls also have dutch doors leading to paddocks; these doors are generally open and likely eliminate any incentive to try to “escape” by jumping over a stall front. And when the horses were first introduced to the euro stalls, I made a point of making sure these doors stayed open.

[mvp]

Thank you fall for weighing in!

Bluey, those pictures of horses making bad decisions are strangely reassuring to me. After all, the safest set up still a disaster to the very determined horse.

And I love seeing the pictures of what you all chose. Anyone use a company besides Heritage (in the Southeast) and love their product and prices?

More info: This barn will have a 14’ aisle and paddocks off the back with Dutch doors, so no one will be trapped with the front of the stall looking like the only way out of a bad situation.

But I have absolutely worked in (and hated) those “gauntlet” aisles where you had to worry about the horse in your hand plus the jerk in his stall trying to bite him. And the thrown or torn down equipment. Just No. All that (and ventilation) inspired the 14’ aisle. Trunks and blankets will be on the opposite wall.

I will build a stallion stall (or perhaps two) on the ends. The idea is that untrustworthy horses can be put in those stalls and really closed in. But I was wondering about the wisdom of these low stall fronts for your average bears.

And these stalls are in 50% of the barns on farms that will be “comps” for mine. They are small but luscious hobby farms. I’m being a little over-kill in terms of building for a stallion or fragile-and-wild rehab case or whatever.

I was thinking about allowing horses to have this head out option that gave them more range than a yoke in a door because I’ll save money (and maybe help the shy horse) by not having bars between the stalls. Those make a barn look nice: It feels like a large, open room and the whole heard can see each other. But I think that will blow up my budget even worse than is already going to happen. I’ll build walls with 2x6s and spaces between them for some air flow and visibility for the horses. But I have a hard time closing in the front when the sides are so closed, too.

[mvp]

@YankeeLawyer Who made your stall fronts? Do you think the 5’ high yoke is too tall for your regular sized horses? I’m small, so a 16 hander is all I need to ever own, if I have a choice and his stride is long. I worry about building a yoke or door so high that those short horses are always lifting their head to look out and building the underside of their neck. You can picture a pony doing that.

So I’m trying to find a solution to having a safe stall for an average horse as well as a design that I can modify for that stallion/rogue horse stall.

[Redlei44]

If it were me, I would be wary of building a barn that might dictate the horses I could safely manage in the future. I wouldn’t want to limit my future choices in that way, even if I were currently confident that it is sufficient. (Though you are mitigating some of this risk with the stallion stall(s).)

I personally have no attachment to Euro-style fronts - I much prefer the look and the functionality of a closeable yoke for all of the reasons listed by others. In the interest of efficiency I would not purposely plan to keep daily gear on the other side of a 14’-aisleway if I didn’t have to. And with Dutch doors to the outside, having the extra openness to the aisle with the Euros would be less critical to me.

But! That’s just me. Obviously plenty of folks do it and love both the look and the functionality, so I think if it’s something you love, go for it.

[YankeeLawyer]

@mvp

@YankeeLawyer Who made your stall fronts? Do you think the 5’ high yoke is too tall for your regular sized horses? I’m small, so a 16 hander is all I need to ever own, if I have a choice and his stride is long. I worry about building a yoke or door so high that those short horses are always lifting their head to look out and building the underside of their neck. You can picture a pony doing that.

So I’m trying to find a solution to having a safe stall for an average horse as well as a design that I can modify for that stallion/rogue horse stall.

Hi! Our stall fronts were made by Sunset Valley Metalcraft in PA. I think they did a great job (they also made our dutch doors for the barn). https://sunsetvalleymetalcraft.com/horse-stalls.html

I do think our fronts are a bit high; I don’t mind them but my pony, for example, cannot put her head over the front (but can see through the grill as she would in a regular stall). Attached is a photo of my 16 hand mare; as you can see, she can just put her head over. Lucas Equine makes a similar front with a dip over the stall door that solves this issue (photo attached). On hindsight, that style might have been ideal. Sunset made our fronts according to my drawings, so the design issue is on me!!

[Willesdon]

Well, any horse can be a total idiot but in my experience they are happy and peaceful if they have sight of other horses and if they can freely choose to look out at the world or stand at the back of their stable. I also like the better ventilation offered by open fronts. [* assume crash position here* ] My impression, from this side of the ocean, is that many American barns are dark, stuffy and claustrophobic with the horses imprisoned in small cells.

I personally, in 5 decades, know of only one 14.2 Welsh pony who could jump out of his stable over a full height Dutch door, from a standing start. He rarely did so, and only when he was bored and missing a full haynet over night. He never went anywhere but stayed close to his friends.

Recycled ‘plastic planks’ are increasingly popular as they don’t require maintainence like wood does in the challenging stable environment.

[jawa]

Been there, done that and have the vet bill to prove it. My ASB gelding was in the stall due to a scratch on his eye. He had a buddy in with him, but apparently not the buddy he wanted. He jumped out and into a 8’ wide aisle. The barn worker was still there, so put him back in his stall. He did it a second time, only wasn’t successful. He hung his hind leg between the stall guard and the stall door. He ended up straining his stifle and have some pretty bad burns around his pastern. There was not top door at that barn, so I had to put up one of the webbed stall guards at the top to keep him confined for his now much extended stall rest.

[mvp]

@Redlei44

I much prefer the look and the functionality of a closeable yoke for all of the reasons listed by others. In the interest of efficiency I would not purposely plan to keep daily gear on the other side of a 14’-aisleway if I didn’t have to. And with Dutch doors to the outside, having the extra openness to the aisle with the Euros would be less critical to me.

Have you (or any of you all found a closable yoke that didn’t rattle or make the door heavy?

That stallion-esque mare who has dictated a separate stall hates sliding doors and I don’t think she’s going to get over that. I kinda hate them, too. Along these lines I don’t want to choose a door with a rattling removable section, or choose a door that have a heavy fold down yoke and will swing on hinges. Oh, and I’m 5’1" so swinging a yoke up to the top will be a bit of a pain.

Anyone have a fabulous removable yoke design that I don’t know about?

ETA: I don’t picture having to really close in that stallion stall 90% of the time. My mare is not aggressive and I’d bring Jesus to meet any horse that was lunging at one passing by, so I don’t think this will be A Thing. Rather, I’m mainly considering something like a boarded and fragile rehab horse where there is absolutely no margin for error. I’ll probably get this done via leaving the door’s poles high and attaching a stall guard there so that the front of that stall’s wall is a minimum of about 7’ at its lowest point.

That’s the design idea for now. I’m open to any other good ideas that you all have.

[mvp]

@jawa

Been there, done that and have the vet bill to prove it. My ASB gelding was in the stall due to a scratch on his eye. He had a buddy in with him, but apparently not the buddy he wanted. He jumped out and into a 8’ wide aisle. The barn worker was still there, so put him back in his stall. He did it a second time, only wasn’t successful. He hung his hind leg between the stall guard and the stall door. He ended up straining his stifle and have some pretty bad burns around his pastern. There was not top door at that barn, so I had to put up one of the webbed stall guards at the top to keep him confined for his now much extended stall rest.

Yikes! See my stall guard plan above— I could be building an extra tangle in.

[Redlei44]

@mvp

Have you (or any of you all found a closable yoke that didn’t rattle or make the door heavy?

That stallion-esque mare who has dictated a separate stall hates sliding doors and I don’t think she’s going to get over that. I kinda hate them, too. Along these lines I don’t want to choose a door with a rattling removable section, or choose a door that have a heavy fold down yoke and will swing on hinges. Oh, and I’m 5’1" so swinging a yoke up to the top will be a bit of a pain.

Anyone have a fabulous removable yoke design that I don’t know about?

ETA: I don’t picture having to really close in that stallion stall 90% of the time. My mare is not aggressive and I’d bring Jesus to meet any horse that was lunging at one passing by, so I don’t think this will be A Thing. Rather, I’m mainly considering something like a boarded and fragile rehab horse where there is absolutely no margin for error. I’ll probably get this done via leaving the door’s poles high and attaching a stall guard there so that the front of that stall’s wall is a minimum of about 7’ at its lowest point.

That’s the design idea for now. I’m open to any other good ideas that you all have.

I’m pretty sure that the barn I’m thinking of had Lucas high fronts with removable yokes. If you search that you should be able to find their “decision center” page on yoke options. The yoke is basically secured in the door by gravity and a few pins. I don’t recall it being difficult or heavy to place or remove them. I could see how the swinging yokes might be more challenging but I assume Lucas and competitors have some products or mechanical tricks that help.

I think you and I just have different preferences - I love sliding doors and have never met a swinging stall gate/door I liked! The caveat being that the sliding door is good quality, well mounted, and properly maintained. I remember those Lucas doors as being beautifully made and perfectly balanced once hung - they were basically the stall door version of soft close drawers.