Low Plantar Angles - Resolved? But how long will recovery take?

[RichardX]

@Rudy14. Here’s a clip from today (without draw reins). I just wanted to get a better look at her under saddle today. Now I’ll give her 2-3 days of turn-out (with magnesium supplement - to keep her from being her usual wild child self). What I see, and felt, in this clip 1) bowing of inside lead hock is significantly reduced or gone, but I still feel her hocks are “tentative / wobbly” when she places a hind foot on the ground (better that before though), 2) No sign of the occasional “crouch” she would occasionally do with hind leg(s) (in pain?), 3) Still shows a slightly shorter stride with LH leg than RH leg (on occasion), 4) Pins her ears back periodically, but I can’t tell if it’s from pain, of annoyances (horse flies). She seems to trust me to keep her safe, so I doubt she pins her ears back from my voice or leg commands.

Also, when I let her run free, she displays a lovely gallop, canter, etc with lots of kicking and bucking, but always comes to me when she’s done burning off her energy (generally just do that once a week now). Here’s the clip:

https://youtu.be/YnFxrwnD9EY

[S1969]

@RichardX

@Rudy14. All good info. Thanks. I’ll get back to you shortly on progress. You’re the only contributor that seems to have experience, commentary, and suggestions on hoof angles. For now. I’ll just say that my remedial trimming seems to be helping. I would never claim to know the angles that are ideal for her (still learning my new filly - my third TWH, and the second I’ve trained from green broke), but I think I’m going the right way. Interesting how you mention that she may have been bred to be a padded / Big Lick horse. That’s precisely what I suspected as well.

I’d very much like to continue the discussion / follow-up with you on this. Bear with me. I’ll send you some vids that show her initial problems, progress, and where she is today. And yes, I’m getting tired of folks telling me she has pelvic fractures, DLSD, EPM, or is inhabited by an alien life-form.

Thanks!

I think Rudy is the only contributor that has experience with gaited horses.

Is your farrier experienced with gaited horses?

Most farriers (of non-gaited horses) do not trim hoof angles to a specific degree. What works for one horse’s conformation may not work for another. Even in purpose-bred horses, it may not be the correct angle if it doesn’t match the horse’s conformation.

Is that common in gaited horses?

[AllHorse]

I’m not seeing any improvement at all in that video, if anything the horse looks worse.
you need to get X rays done of the hooves and corresponding bones in the legs to see if there is anything going on there. The low heel doesn’t necessarily mean the angle within the hoof is wrong.
You could try to make a padding of sorts to artificially raise the heels and see what, if any, difference it makes.
I still think she looks weak in her back behind the saddle, as if she’s struggling to carry a rider of your weight.
if she was mine she wouldn’t be being ridden at all, she’s clearly struggling.

[Postandrails]

I don’t see any improvement either. During the whole video there is no point at which her hind cannon bones reach the vertical - she seems to be keeping them tucked under her body. She looks extremely sore to me, and I would be investigating further before riding her again.

[Rudy14]

@S1969

I think Rudy is the only contributor that has experience with gaited horses.

Is that common in gaited horses?

You are probably correct although we do have some very experience gaited people on this board. I do not see them around as often as years past.

With the Tennessee Walking Horse at the end of the day they are still a horse so general principles of horseshoing to the modern standard of what is considered correct often works. As a breed they have been bred with gait alteration in mind for many many years (insert controversial topic here and now move on. lol) I believe this has contributed to development of horses who tend to have a great tolerance for adjustment of the gait with even just 1-2 degrees in either direction. I generally want to start them trimmed to their conformation (within reason esp for a breed where most of the horses toe out horribly) and evalutate their gait from that point. Depending on what they are doing I will alter the angles upward or downward and sometimes add a shoe with a few ounces more weight to further alter timing either to the front or hind. It really depends on my end goal. If I have a trotty horse who is going to be out on the trail then they get a shoe that is slightly heavier behind or alternatively normal flat shoe behind and barefoot up front and then are walked with an even 4 beat gait and steadily increased in speed as the horse builds up muscle to sustain their gait correctly. If someone doesn’t really care about the precision of the gait then any rendition of a 4 beat gait is quite comfortable and encouraging a rack is easier, more comfortable, and can generally in my opinion be developed faster than a good running walk. Once a horse is solid in their timing, some horses can then be put in to a normal every day flat shoe/keg shoe etc. (or kept in their normal flat shoe if that was all they ever needed) and worked from there to square the timing up a bit more again. Some horses cannot sustain their correct timing without some form of alteration of shoe (even for trail riding.) I do find that people who want a trail specific horse tend to be much more lax at what they want than people like me who do trail riding as well as are geared towards the showring in some form or fashion. Just like with all other disciplines… there is a lot of time, experience, and many nuances that go in to getting these horses to their peak. Their feet can make or break them

These horses are definitely an interesting breed.

[RichardX]

Thanks @Rudy14. Third veterinarian gait exam (and Xrays) scheduled in 2 weeks. I’ll just dog walk her at least till then.

[Rudy14]

@RichardX

Thanks @Rudy14. Third veterinarian gait exam (and Xrays) scheduled in 2 weeks. I’ll just dog walk her at least till then.

If they still find nothing then I would strongly encourage you to lower the hinds by 2 degrees, dog walk for a couple weeks, and then consider dropping by another 2 degrees and go from there. You may very well be creating lameness for the sake of correcting a problem which may not have even been a problem.

[jonem004]

X-ray for the palmar angle. Find the pain by having your vet block the front hooves at the heel and work your way up. I don’t think anyone can get a real handle of where she might be hurting from video in draw reins. Sore as she looks on that nice footing I’d lay off riding her until you get a work up done and find some answers. Good luck, she’s a little cutie!

ETA- I don’t know anything about walking horses and their gait. You’ll want to find a vet who does, because this gait will be difficult to analyze for someone who isn’t familiar with it.

[RichardX]

@Rudy14 and @S1969: I thought I had already clarified this (maybe not). I had my vets do a thorough EPM / neuro exam (been there, done that, with a previous horse). Results: Negative. Also, my farrier has TWH’s of his own, and plenty of experience shoeing and trimming them. Also, @jonem004, I thought I mentioned this before: The next step will be neural blocking and Xrays - especially of PLANTAR angles - if she’s not substantially better at next gait exam. And @Rudy14, your advice is well taken. I’ll measure her angles at her next trim in 2 weeks, consult with my farrier, and if her symptoms aren’t better, consider 2 degrees sharper on hind hooves. BTW, she has never been “trotty” - more on the pacy side, but was steadily improving until she developed these symptoms.

Thanks for the input / advice.

[Rudy14]

@RichardX If it makes you feel better she looks like a typical uncoordinated green TWH and not like a neuro or EPM horse although I have obviously not done a neuro examination on her. If she walks ‘neuro’ people would hate to see my colt walk. lol She is however lame on that hind left for some reason. Being a little pacey is perfectly fine as is being a bit trotty but even many pacey horses cannot tolerate 56 degrees behind.

[RichardX]

To all of you, and especially @Obsidian Fire @skipolo and @Rudy 14 , Here’s an update. And I welcome all comments and advice:

1. I reviewed all videos I have of my filly “stumbling” / "dipping " (under saddle) with her hind legs - in super slo-mo. In every case where she stumbled or “dipped”, it was clearly caused by the knuckle-over of either right or left hind foot, after she placed her foot toe-first. And this ONLY occurred in the ring (deep sand) - and never on flat surfaces (road or trail). From what I’ve read, this is a symptom of LPA.

2. I noticed swelling in both of her hind fetlocks over a month ago. And I now suspect this was partly - if not wholly - due to her low plantar angles (hopefully now improved through trimming), as well as her occasional knuckle-overs. The swelling is almost all gone now.

3. After over a month of stall rest - transitioned to pasture turn-out - the outward bowing of her hocks is almost all gone, and only occasionally appears when walking on a lunge line (in circles, of course). When I film her walking in straight lines, I see no bowing, although her hocks seem “tentative” when she places her feet. Wringing? Don’t know. But I do know that she has sickle hocks, which is apparently common - and even desirable? - in some TWH’s and even jumpers. I believe that the higher angles (now) of her hind hooves, and muscular development, will marginally reduce her sickle hocks as time goes by.

4. My filly still shows an occasional shorter LH stride, but this seems to be improving daily now.

5. I have no intention of training my mare for “big lick” work. She is flat shod, and will remain that way for life.

6. My vet diagnosed, treated, and cured (go ahead and disagree with the use of that last word) my previous horse with EPM, after which she became a not-too-shabby barrel racer, jumper, pole bender, cow-sorter, and all-around cantering, galloping, and “running walking” versatile athlete. So yes, my vets and I are well versed in the symptoms of EPM. My new filly does not show symptoms. My vets are also fairly sure that DLSD is not evidenced by what they’ve seen.

7. Based on the video evidence, and the last two vet’s gait exams of my filly, my farrier and vets will Xray her hind feet next week. Following what they find (she’s barefoot now), we’ll proceed with neural blocking, further Xrays, and / or remedial shoeing as necessary.

I’ll update further when I have news.

[RichardX]

Thanks to all for your input, especially @Rudy14 @Obsidian Fire and @skipollo . Here’s an update. And I welcome all comments and advice:

1. I reviewed all videos I have of my filly “stumbling” / "dipping " (under saddle) with her hind legs - in super slo-mo. In every case where she stumbled or “dipped”, it was clearly caused by the knuckle-over of either right or left hind foot, after she placed her foot toe-first. And this ONLY occurred in the ring (deep sand) - and never on flat surfaces (road or trail). From what I’ve read, this is a symptom of LPA.

2. I noticed swelling in both of her hind fetlocks over a month ago. And I now suspect this was partly - if not wholly - due to her low plantar angles (hopefully now improved through trimming), as well as her occasional knuckle-overs. The swelling is almost all gone now.

3. After over a month of stall rest - transitioned to pasture turn-out - the outward bowing of her hocks is almost all gone, and only occasionally appears when walking on a lunge line (in circles, of course). When I film her walking in straight lines, I see no bowing, although her hocks seem “tentative” when she places her feet. Wringing? Don’t know. But I do know that she has sickle hocks, which is apparently common - and even desirable? - in some TWH’s and even jumpers. I believe that the higher angles (now) of her hind hooves, and muscular development, will marginally reduce her sickle hocks as time goes by.

4. My filly still shows an occasional shorter LH stride, but this seems to be improving daily now.

5. I have no intention of training my filly for “big lick” work. She is flat shod, and will remain that way for life.

6. My vet diagnosed, treated, and cured (go ahead and disagree with the use of that last word) my previous horse with EPM, after which she became a not-too-shabby barrel racer, jumper, pole bender, cow-sorter, and all-around cantering, galloping, and “running walking” versatile athlete. So yes, my vets and I are well versed in the symptoms of EPM. My new filly does not show symptoms. My vets are also fairly sure that DLSD is not evidenced by what they’ve seen.

7. Based on the video evidence, and the last two vet’s gait exams of my filly, my farrier and vets will Xray her hind feet next week. Following what they find (she’s barefoot now), we’ll proceed with neural blocking, further Xrays, and / or remedial shoeing as necessary.

I’ll update further when I have news. And I hope this thread is helpful to future viewers.

[Equestrianette]

In regard to the original question regarding palmar angles. Yes I have successfully rehabbed my gelding by utilizing X rays obtained by his vet that is an expert in rehabbing OTTB feet plus my excellent farrier. He spent a year in a bar shoe and 2 degree wedge pads. Started with -5 degree palmar angle on the right and after 9 months of special shoeing it went to -1 and we are now in the process of weaning from the wedge pads and he’s back in a regular shoe. It’s a long process but it’s possible for sure. Obviously there is a lot more to it than this brief synopsis.

[stargzng386]

Good luck with the vet! Stick to your guns I have a 3 1/2 year old who was slightly lame with back soreness coming back from being broke. Took him to the vet, had him treated and he’s vastly improved. BUT when I go back through videos at the trainers I can still slightly see that HR is not quite right. I have another vet and trainer saying it’s just a young horse being worse in one direction and weak. He’s going back to the vet on Friday and I’m insisting on blocks. If it’s just baby horse unevenness/lack of strength that’s fine I’ll keep with the program lots of walking, hills etc to build him up. But if he blocks sounder somewhere then I want to dig more and treat it. I missed your videos they’re all gone now but looking forward to an update after your vet visit.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@RichardX

Thanks to all for your input, especially @Rudy14 @Obsidian Fire and @skipollo . Here’s an update. And I welcome all comments and advice:

1) I reviewed all videos I have of my filly “stumbling” / "dipping " (under saddle) with her hind legs - in super slo-mo. In every case where she stumbled or “dipped”, it was clearly caused by the knuckle-over of either right or left hind foot, after she placed her foot toe-first. And this ONLY occurred in the ring (deep sand) - and never on flat surfaces (road or trail). From what I’ve read, this is a symptom of LPA.

I’ll update further when I have news. And I hope this thread is helpful to future viewers.

That’s very interesting. Thank you for sharing that. I’ve never filmed my mare and then watched in slow-mo.

But, just because you’re exploring all angles (no pun intended, and good for you), I’ll share this: Landing toe first - sometimes means heels are sore, but setting that aside - think about the whole leg complex. For example: If I take a stride and land on my ‘whole foot’ and my back/hip/knee is sore/weak/unstable, what will I do to compensate? I’ll land ‘toe first’ instead.
I’m just going to use my horse as an example, because she does have weak stifles, and she also has back pain. I don’t think that she lands ‘toe first’ but there is definitely a component of “when I(horse) land flat on my foot the upper part of my(her) leg complex can’t take it - my(her) hip hurts my(her) back hurts and I(she) can’t push thru using my(her) glutes with strength.”

It’s interesting to me because where my mare lacks development is over the top of her glutes. I cannot seem to get it no matter what I do. I do have a vet involved and we are working on solving the problem.

Anyway please do keep us updated. And, you are doing a great job of paying attention! I know it can get frustrating, so hang in there.

[RichardX]

@stargzng386 @Obsidian Fire and @Equestrianette

[RichardX]

Thanks for your comments, @Equestrianette @Obsidian Fire and @stargzng386 . I have to admit that I’m a “Technosaur”. I deleted several youtube clips - not thinking they would disappear on this site. But here’s a “compilation” of 4 different knuckle-overs I filmed between May and July - with both hind feet. PLEASE NOTE: I have hours and hours of footage from when I first started training my filly. Almost all of it is fine. But if you saw this video and nothing else, you might say, “My God! That horse is in deep trouble!” Remember: these are all 5-10 second clips taken from 10-20 minute rides over a period of months. I just dug through all my footage on my computer to isolate these knuckle-overs, then zoomed-in and ran in super slo-mo (I don’t know how to do that with youtube clips, but maybe you non-technosaurs know how to do that?

Anyway, I now see clearly that this only occurs 1) in the deep sand of the indoor arena, and 2) when turning in circles. I have no footage of her doing this when walking in straight lines. And I’ve never felt her stumbling under me on flat ground or trails. But I think pain in her pasterns and fetlocks (from LPA as well as knuckle-overs) may have caused problems further up her legs (hocks, stifles, hips?).
My plan now is to keep her walking in fairly straight lines, doing some uphill work (which seems to help a bit), and now focus on feet and fetlocks at my next vets’ gait exam (with farrier) next week. I think these video clips will help my vets to better identify the issue(s) so we can start with feet Xrays and proceed with further imaging / neural blocking / remedial shoeing as necessary.

https://youtu.be/ClnbhYJoi2k

I’ll post another clip of a ring ride recently, when I tried an experiment that a trainer I know, as well as several forum contributors, recommended: take her on the trail, do some uphill work at a walk, then film her in the ring afterward to see if it helped or hurt.

[RichardX]

Here’s a vid from a few days ago - after I took her for a 30 minute trail ride, at a walk, and doing some uphills. Looks to me like this actually helped: Less toe-stabbing and no knuckle-overs, no turning of hocks, and LH stride much improved (same length as RH stride, most of the time) with good overreach and break-overs.

https://youtu.be/pSJ0lTHHd14

[Obsidian_Fire]

@RichardX - hills and straight lines are highly recommended PT for horses with weak stifles. So are cavaletti (ground poles) and backing up. Circles are something to stay away from.

What my vet told me is those muscles right in front of and around the stifle are responsible for keeping it in line and moving correctly. In order to strengthen them, the horse must lift its leg. There’s your poles. Then, backing up - a horse must “sit” a little bit to back up, which also helps strengthen the gluteal & leg muscles (think quadriceps, hamstrings). Hills, require pushing from behind, which means they must lift the leg and bring it forward.
Backing UP a hill - really good. Requires them to really think and use their hind end. I know my mare struggles a bit with that, I work on it slowly from the ground. Find a gentle hill to start with, a steep one will be worrisome to your horse.

[RichardX]

Good stuff @Obsidian Fire . My baby backs well, although I don’t do it as a usual exercise. And backing UP a hill? Never done that, but I’ll start now (with an easy one to start). Yes, I’m avoiding all tight circles until I’m sure she’s out of the woods. I give her daily hamstring / glute stretches (rear toe almost touching front fetlock) and quad stretches - straight back, all joints almost in a line. Don’t know why, but she seems to trust me. I’ll try her over cavaletti’s again soon too. She wasn’t fond of them the first time we tried, but that was a few months ago. When we do them, I’ll film it, as usual - just to make sure it’s not aggravating any pain she might still have. Thanks!