WOW. That’s quite an alarming description. :eek:
I would have thought that you would have had x rays done by now to actually determine if those plantar angles were actually out and if so what effect it had on the other bones in the leg. That way you could have follow up x rays to chart improvement as the hoof was corrected.
Given the age of this filly and her clear lack of physical maturity in the video combined with your weight (you look seriously under horsed on her) the wisest thing to be doing to help her would be to turn her out for a year and give her time to grow and develop naturally.
i don’t understand your rush to ride her.
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@AllHorse, Xrays scheduled, with farrier present, next week. As I said above: I wanted to resolve the OBVIOUS issue my filly had (radical hoof geometry) before looking for other problems. For example, if your friend says his car has trouble turning to the left, and you notice that the right front wheel is missing, you don’t start tearing through the steering system to get to the root of the problem. You mount a right front wheel first and go from there. Look at my sketch of her original hoof geometry.
As for being under-horsed, she’s 15.3 hands, approx 1,050 lbs. I’m 6’ 170 lbs, and have a hand-made lightweight Tennesean saddle (18 lbs), but my legs always make my horse look smaller, as I wear 36" long jeans (and don’t know anyone else who does). I have to use extended stirrup straps with most saddles.
I get what you’re trying to do but you’ve focused your thread on asking when the plantar angles will be resolved but you actually have no definite proof if they’re even ‘out’.
A horse can be low on its heels from incorrect trimming but not have incorrect angles, a horse can actually look correct in its heel but have incorrect angles.
Only an X Ray can show what’s actually going on. Your horse might just be very sore or even have something else going on inside that hoof.
Im really puzzled that your vet and farrier wouldn’t have wanted X rays from the get go
That mare doesn’t look to weigh that much, I have a 15 hand that’s bigger bodied but only weighs 800 pounds. My 6’ husband doesn’t look out of place on her.
It wouldn’t be such a concern of mine if your mare was older, better developed and not ready struggling.
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@AllHorse, every horse looks smaller than they are when I’m mounted on them, because of the length of my legs. I have to special-order jeans - and stirrup straps. If you saw a pic of me riding a 15 hand horse, you’d swear I was on a Shetland pony, with my heels a foot or two off the ground. Which is why I always go for tall, well-built horses. My local Purina rep (who checks her weight and condition and tweaks her diet once a month) and vets (who weigh her and analyze her gait and health once a month) disagree on her weight: from 1,050 to 1,150 lbs. My eyeball leans toward 1,050 lbs - could be more. But maybe I should put a 5’4" petite rider on my baby so you had a better perspective (Haha!). Yes, Xrays are scheduled. I put them off until now, because I knew what they’d show when her hooves were radically out of whack: that all dimensions and angles were bad.
Now that her hooves are much closer to healthy dimensions, the Xrays will be much more useful.
To throw in another analogy: I once went to see an ortho doc for knee pain - couldn’t even walk up stairs. I wanted her to Xray me, then get out the knives and power tools and fix it. She saw me walk and do squats (or try to), shook her head, and told me, “Sorry, you need to get your patellas properly aligned before we waste any time or money on anything else. Go see this Rehab Clinic for some PT. I’ll tell them what to make you do. If you still have pain after a month of PT, come back here and we’ll Xray or MRI and go from there.” I never had to go back to that doc, because the PT fixed it.
In a similar vein, I have followed the advice of trainers, TWH pros, and others (including contributors to this forum) who have experience with low / negative plantar angles - the folks whose advice I sought in my original post. I followed their advice. And my baby’s progress reflects that.
But yes, now that my baby seems to be out of the woods, I’ll get Xrays for her (even though I wouldn’t bother for myself) to make sure there are no other underlying issues or problems either in her feet or further up her legs / pelvis / back that need to be addressed.
Thanks for your response.
Most of us are saying the opposite. You can continue to disagree if you want. Xrays would have ensured you were correctly identifying the “healthy dimensions” before trimming instead of guessing.
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A tall well built horse is something along the lines of something over 16.2 that’s probably got some WB or Irish Draught blood in it, though some TBs can look well built.
IMO your mare is neither tall and in her current level of maturity is not well built. Her top line looks underdeveloped, so is her hind end and she’s got no depth of girth.
You have no evidence that her angles are wrong so no amount of experienced replies can help you here as they actually don’t know what you are dealing with.
A horse with a rotated coffin bone from laminitis will avoid walking on its toe and try to place its weight on its heel, this in turn will cause the toe to grow unnaturally long and the pressure on the soft heel will cause soreness there. In hind hoof damage from laminitis this will then result in an odd twisted and sometimes ‘hopping’ gait as the horse tries to avoid putting weight anywhere
I’ve done some google searches and the best article I can find on low plantar angles is on gravelproofhoof.org. I would suggest you read it through.
Get those X rays done and let the horse have time to recover and mature before you think about riding her.
She looks unsound and in pain in your video, I find it hard to believe that she could have recovered as quickly as you say, given how long it takes a normal hoof to grow.
You ask for advice, should be willing to listen to advice that you don’t want to hear if you really want to help your horse
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You have a young horse that, when you began, was grossly out of shape. The first video you posted was gone; I watched the second. I saw a young horse that was clearly green under saddle but, like most Walkers, doing the they they can to perform as the rider orders. The steps you have taken to date have been the correct ones. Don’t stop doing them.
You have three more years to go before your horse fully mature. Take this into account as you go along. What you do NOW is laying the foundation for the rest of the horse’s life. To that end I would suggest you find a good quality, long term program of training. Personally, I like Vladimir Littauer’s program in his work Common Sense Horsemanship. His program is designed to create a horse suitable for fox hunting but that’s not at all a bad thing. A good horse in the hunt field will be a good horse in virtually all amateur equine activities. The book is free to download in multiple places.
It’s been my experience with Walkers (about 12 years) and Marchadors (almost 20) that when my horse has a problem there is a 90% probability that horse’s problem has its roots in my action, or lack of action. Put another way, I am my horse’s biggest problem! I regularly use the video camera to keep myself in line, but it’s a real “smug basher.” It takes some intestinal fortitude to video yourself. Good on you for doing it.
But, now the Bad News. ;(
You are sitting in an exaggerated chair seat, with your butt WAY back on the cantle and feet almost on the “dashboard.” This is a classic Walker seat and the source of much difficulty. This is putting ENORMOUS strain on rear third of the spine, as your weight is concentrated on two, six inch circles on the back. A horse that is weak from lack of activity, stressed like this, will stumble on the rear end from the strain if the footing is not very solid. As the horse gains strength through work this gait anomaly will decrease but won’t go away.
The saddle also appears to be too big for the horse, and maybe you. There is a LOT of space between your crotch and the pommel. While you don’t want to be “wedged” into a saddle you certainly don’t want as much room as you have. This very long saddle is further increasing the strain placed upon the horse’s back. This is all very clear at the 10 sec. mark of the video.
I also note that you move between leaning back and hunching forward. The degree is quite noticeable. Movement of the upper body to control equine movement is a Good Thing. But done without limit is not a help. I can’t tell from the video if the movement of your back in causing change in horse movement or the result of horse movement (you are “behind” the horse).
Unlike most Walker riders you appear to have good hands and you’re not beating up the horse’s mouth. That’s a Very Good Thing in a young horse.
I don’t know what kind of lessons you take, if any, but I’d find an instructor that follows a more classical style of riding and that will relieve some of the pressures noted and may resolve many of the gait anomalies. Beware of instructors that tout their “gaited horse experience.” For almost ALL general equine issues there is little to no difference between a trotter and a gaited horse. You ride a Walker the same way you’d ride a TB or QH or grade 90% of the time.
Looks like you’ve got a decent, young horse, here. From the video there are some things to fix but they are all quite fixable. 
Best of luck going forward.
G.
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Thanks for all the good advice, @Guilherme. Well received. I’d ridden nothing but TB’s, Arabs, and QH’s for 30 years before I got my first TWH. This one’s my third. And thanks for your “gentle” critique of my riding style. I often tell folks, “Yeah. I’m a good rider… but you wouldn’t ever want to film me riding.” I started filming my filly - walking, chasing, lungeing, and riding - to follow her progress and diagnose problems.
She was green-green, in poor condition, under weight, and under-developed when I got her. She had no medical, dental, or vaccination records. Her feet were a mess: lots of rotted frog tissue, overgrown bars, very long toes, and almost no heel). I’ve taken advantage of once-monthly visits by my local Purina rep (to assess her health, conformation, musculature, weight, etc - and adjust her diet) as well as almost-monthly visits from my vets to monitor her progress.
I got a 17" saddle, against my best instincts, because the saddle maker told me “the length of my legs requires it” I know I have an exaggerated “chair seat”. As with all saddles, I ran out of holes in the stirrup straps with this one too. I guess I should special-order stirrup straps for this saddle too (as I do blue jeans - with 36" inseams). I’m 6’ tall, but have the legs of a man a few inches taller.
Oh - and I try to be easy on every horse’s mouth. But my wild child has been known to make my fingers go numb, on the trail, when she wants to run and I won’t let her. But I’m gonna be stubborn and stick with a gentle snaffle bit so she respects my hands. I think I’ll only switch to a curb / shank bit when others (maybe a potential share boarder) ride her. I’ve already tried it on her twice, and she respects (doesn’t resist) it.
For the size of the saddle itself, it’s a Tennessean lite (18 lbs). It has flared front “wings” to keep it off of her shoulders and a higher pommel and gullet to keep it off of her withers. It’s the same saddle I put on my last TWH (also 15.3 hands barefoot, but closer to 1,150 lbs than 1,000-1,050 lbs of my new filly). But It’s obvious to me, my vets, and my Purina rep, that her torso has not filled-out yet and she still has some growing to do. If she doesn’t grow into the saddle, I’ll replace it.
Noted your comments on my form and movement in the saddle. My excuse is that I feel I’m adjusting to what my “wild child” does under me. But I know I need to be a more stable weight on her back. I work on that with a trainer at my barn (I’m teaching her about TWH’s, but she’s an expert in horesmanship, barrel racing, and equine care (degree in equine sciences is a plus)). I often take some of her time to critique my riding style (as well as what’s going-on under me), and she has echoed some of your comments. Thanks for your observations. Very well noted.
To catch you up on what you may have missed, I first noticed (3 months ago - 2 months after I got her) that my filly 1) was wringing her hocks, 2) had a shorter LH stride, and 3) made occasional hind leg stumbles (both legs) that I later identified as toe-planting followed by fetlock knuckle-overs (thank God I took the vids and went through them all, zoomed-in, in slo-mo). This was after I had started working with my farrier to improve her hoof geometry (all 4 were long (6") and narrow (4")) when I got her, which led me to research the effects of low / negative palmar / plantar angles. I’ve worked with my farrier (who owns TWH’s himself) since day 1 to gradually give her better hoof geometry (she actually has heels under her coronet bands now, and her hoof widths are expanding, barefoot).
Here’s the good news:
I’ve taken a couple of test rides on her recently. Filmed us walking in the ring, did some hill work (walking) on the trail, then returned to the ring and filmed us walking again. Both times, the footage in the ring was better AFTER the trail ride than before. This tells me the exercise helps her: No more toe-planting / knuckle-overs, short LH stride, and hock wringing greatly reduced.
I’ll post a new video soon, after vet and farrier work later this week.
Meantime, I’ll look for Vladimir Littauer’s [U]Common Sense Horsemanship
Thanks!![/U]
@Guilherme Here’s a “montage” I put together recently. Call it a “baby album montage”. You can see how I started training my filly from day 1 (mid-March) through May (when I first saw problems / pain) which start at about 2:00 in this video. And no, they weren’t all in one day. I dug through footage and pulled these clips from a month-plus of footage. You also won’t see her 6-7 weeks of stall rest and rehab work / daily walks. But at the end, you’ll see clips of how she did most recently on two (after trail work") test rides.
I’ll delete the vid after I get some useful commentary. And I’ll post an update next week. Hopefully this thread will be useful to other horsey folks in the future - especially if 1) LPA was the issue, 2) my filly was a grade 1 (per the DVM 360 article), as I suspect, and 3) proper, progressive trimming cured it. If so, the most useful advice I’ll add at the end of this thread will be a response to my original thread question: How long does recovery from LPA take (if you cured it through trimming alone)?
That will be interesting: By following some good advice and observations I’ve received here, on another forum, and from trainers I know, I hope to eventually answer my own question - and pass it on!
We understand what negative palmar angle is. But the point is that you don’t know for sure until you take rads; which tells you how to trim to correct. From the article:
The presence of collapsed heels and a hoof capsule that is “running forward,” as evidenced by examination of the solar surface as described above, should be a red flag. Regardless of whether the horse is lame at the time, it is important to obtain lateral radiographs of the feet. Use a radiographic technique that yields good soft tissue detail, and center the beam at the solar margin of the third phalanx (P3) to ensure a true lateral. These radiographs are important both to confirm the presence of a negative palmar or plantar angle (PA) and to develop an appropriate treatment plan (see “All about PA”).
May be a double post because my first was unapproved. I’m going to remove the link above.
We understand what negative palmar angle means. The point is that you should confirm your suspicions before trimming to correct it. (Because you might be wrong.) From the article you posted:
The presence of collapsed heels and a hoof capsule that is “running forward,” as evidenced by examination of the solar surface as described above, should be a red flag. Regardless of whether the horse is lame at the time, it is important to obtain lateral radiographs of the feet. Use a radiographic technique that yields good soft tissue detail, and center the beam at the solar margin of the third phalanx (P3) to ensure a true lateral. These radiographs are important both to confirm the presence of a negative palmar or plantar angle (PA) and to develop an appropriate treatment plan (see “All about PA”).
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If you thoroughly read the article then you should be aware of the importance of having X rays done from the very start because it stresses that low heels (while obviously undesirable) do not always mean the horse has a negative plantar or palmar angle.
Having those X rays would also be helping you now as they would be a definite guideline in knowing if the trimming was aiding progress in core ting bone placement or just easing heel pain and the domino effect that walking on a wrongly balanced hoof had on ligaments and tendons.
Have you ever tried artificially raising and protecting the heel?
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The OP is having a vet out this week with a farrier and I am sure she will get hoof xrays to be able to go from there on a trimming/corrective plan.
Thank you for posting the videos knowing that you might get negative responses.
I’m not an expert by any means and have not owned a gaited horse but have had a few chronically lame horses with multiple issues so take this for what it’s worth…sorry for the novel
I don’t think this is purely a hoof issue. When your mare drops her hip totally out from under her and when she moves at the canter with both hind feet kept together more than normal that screams stifle/SI issue to me. Even in the better video clips where she really relaxes and moves more evenly she still does not appear to be completely equal stepping with her hind feet. I think you need to get to the root cause of that. I think the video montage would be fantastic to show your vet before they do the exam.
Whatever the root cause of the problem, hoof, stifle, SI etc there will be smaller compensating issues arise that will also need to be addressed even if they’re not causing the actual lameness. My youngster had his follow up vet apt last Friday. The back soreness caused by the tick disease is gone but he has a little residual soreness in his right SI and front left shoulder muscle from moving crooked from a sore back. He is sound and rideable but the vet gave him some meds to help clear up the secondary soreness and he got bodywork done yesterday to assist as well. We’re going to be doing walking only rides in a field that also has a sloping hill for the next week or two before adding anything else back in.
I don’t really think you are underhorsed. Mine still hasn’t filled out and I do look a little big on him but I’m within the 20% and making sure that I’m not going to overdo it or push him too fast as he’s developing muscle. I will have basically 2 years of short walking rides with some t/c thrown in every once in awhile as he develops. So while she doesn’t look fully developed IF your vet clears her for work just make sure to keep it easy since you hopefully want to have this horse as a partner for 20 years to come. Your stirrups do look too short to me, I won’t comment on the seat position since I’m not familiar enough with the gaited world.
My biggest negative is some of the “equipment” being used restricting your horse’s head mobility. When the gentleman is backing her up in the montage video and has some sort of draw reins on very tight it really made me cringe. She has no where to go and no ability to use her head/neck for balance, support anything. I do know the gaited horses go with a higher headset but your horse is a baby. In the free video where she’s cantering outside she has her head lower and she looks pretty good. When you ride her you are soft with your hand and she moves more forward and relaxed. I also agree that she looks better after the trail ride but I think some of that might just be because of how and where she’s holding her head. After the trail ride she has relaxed and is stretching down and forward with her head, therefore the rest of her body is moving more fluidly and relaxed.
Comparing this to my English world ultimately my horse will need to travel in a “frame” with a bend in his neck slightly to the inside with his nose down. Currently half the time we look like a giraffe and half the time his head is actually a little too low but that’s OK. I need to get forward motion, balance and straightness before I ask for the “upper level” headset. To ask for that now will cause him to arch his back, not move through his whole body and potentially prevent him from moving forward when I ask and even create kicking out, rearing etc to move away from a pressure that he’s not ready for yet. When we start a ride and we’re in a new area his head is up and pivoting around his stride is short and choppy and when he was lame he looked worse. When he became comfortable and relaxed and dropped his head (still zero rein pressure on my part unless using a wide rein to turn) his stride lengthened and he did look “sounder” Even now that he is deemed sound and rideable by the vet there is a vast difference in how he looks when he’s going around head up looking around to when he’s relaxed and drops his head. I am not correcting either at this point. I’m not trying to pull his head down I’m just working with forward motion and consistency to make him relax and with that his head will lower and stride lengthen.
Just a little feedback, @stargzng386 I think you are referring to her slow gallop - not canter. Notice how all 4 feet are off the ground between strides, and that her step pattern is hind-kind-front-front? That doesn’t happen at a canter. Only at a gallop. She also has a much faster gallop, and a lovely canter, but I don’t think she canters at any point in the video you saw.
Training a TWH for a smooth walk and running walk is quite different from training a non-gaited horse to walk and trot. Head position is different. And draw reins are generally used until a smooth running walk and proper head position are established in muscle memory. This is the third TWH I’ve trained, and the second I’ve trained from green-broke. I take advice from friends of mine who are TWH breeders, trainers, and championship (flat shod) competitors. And their advice has served me, and my horses, quite well.
In the video clips at the end, I’m generally giving her free rein (and no draw reins) so I can watch her legs and body, with little input from me other than my weight on her back - to see if she still has pain, stiffness, short strides, knuckle-overs, or hock instability. You don’t see the turns, which I’m doing almost exclusively with leg commands. The reasons I’m doing these “test rides” is that her symptoms only appear now - if at all - when she’s mounted, with weight on her back. I am intentionally avoiding sharp turns and very rarely even lunge her now - unless I’m sure I can keep her at a flat walk. You saw one clip where I WAS lungeing her, and, as you could see, she wanted to canter while I was trying to bring her down to a flat walk, which she resisted. So I’m avoiding lungeing her again until I’m sure she’s out of the woods. On the other hand, when she runs free, she likes to gallop, in straight lines. So I let her do it to burn-off energy.
If I can find some short clips of her cantering solo, I’ll post. But I don’t canter her under saddle and, as I said, she prefers to gallop when set free!
Thanks for your observations.
I’ll update after the vets and farrier visit.
@RichardX do you have any updates from the vet?
Thanks for the explanation about how she’s actually galloping I wasn’t paying attention to the footfalls.
