my thought was, as I read your posts, is what does your boss (the head trainer) say? I would hope they didn’t just throw this at you and tell you to figure it out yourself?
OP, here is a VERY short video on what I was talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enYo0r-4OoE&list=PLWUR0OjZtsyAvC_TYzpgvkYPSeph-cOi4. Buck talks about crowding, what to do if the horse gets pushy or starts going its own way, etc. He doesn’t really demonstrate all that in this short clip, but it’s what I’m referring too.
If you can get this young horse good on yielding the haunches, the circle, leading by and half circle basically leading by but while walking (it’s INCREDIBLY hard at first to keep walking and get the timing right) you’ll be a long way to getting him good on the longe line.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7620595]
OP, here is a VERY short video on what I was talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enYo0r-4OoE&list=PLWUR0OjZtsyAvC_TYzpgvkYPSeph-cOi4. Buck talks about crowding, what to do if the horse gets pushy or starts going its own way, etc. He doesn’t really demonstrate all that in this short clip, but it’s what I’m referring too.
If you can get this young horse good on yielding the haunches, the circle, leading by and half circle basically leading by but while walking (it’s INCREDIBLY hard at first to keep walking and get the timing right) you’ll be a long way to getting him good on the longe line.[/QUOTE]
Thats a darn good demonstration of what the horse needs to know before being put on the lunge and expected to perform correctly. There are various ways of teaching it, most pretty similar. All mine would work all 3 gaits both directions on cue and reverse without incident, that includes QHs, an Ayrab or two, various TBs and even a dumb…errr, I mean warmblood who was a little slow to catch on to just about anything. They all got it with just the halter and line. Just took time and consistency, no magic tricks or special equipment. Did always carry a lunge whip-just to keep them forward and not coming at me or spinning away to present their rear. That flag idea in the demo does about the same thing.
Will say I was not dumb enough to ask them to do it on a cold day when they
were dead fresh in a crowded ring. They worked in side reins in that situation if it could not be avoided (like mid winter) and I squeezed them in between lessons or when others were taking a walk break, was careful who those other riders were too. I found hand walking in the barn aisle for 30 minutes working on basic ground manners before lunging kept them more focused on me and willing to do as asked.
You can use lunging to get the bucks out but only if they have the basic concept of control down, otherwise they can hurt somebody pretty easy and/or get loose.
There is no way you can hold 1100 lbs of excited horse if it does not respect the handler as boss and thinks obedience is optional.
[QUOTE=Timex;7620569]
my thought was, as I read your posts, is what does your boss (the head trainer) say? I would hope they didn’t just throw this at you and tell you to figure it out yourself?[/QUOTE]
My boss/trainer has basically handed him off to me. He is ultimately supposed to be a lesson horse (he is no where near ready and I would never have anyone but my trainer or I on him) but has been put back to basics to get himself stronger and less… crazy. He is only 5 and really doesn’t know much of anything. He just had front shoes put on yesterday because he has basically no heel and wasn’t growing any foot.
She will come out and help me with him if I ask, but she hasn’t worked with him in over a month. I’ve bounced ideas around with her before and I’ve told her my concerns, especially the one about him being borderline dangerous on the lunge in the arena. So, I’m not completely on my own, but to a certain extent, I am.
It sounds like he probably wasn’t ever taught to lunge properly. Is there anyone out there who has experience with young/very green horses? Even if they aren’t working this particular horse, it might be helpful for you to watch someone else. The passive lunging that many people have learned to do with finished horses (stand in the middle, horse canters around you with a little clucking, everyone is happy) doesn’t work well with babies.
If he’s getting away from people on the lunge, he’s unfortunately learning that it works and is probably a lot of fun. I’d keep him in situations where that isn’t an option for him until you know you have full control and he understands what he’s supposed to be doing.
What RugBug said
I am just about the last person to get on the Natural Horsemanship bandwagon, but I started my last young horse with a rope halter for ground work and started lunging work with it as well. Graduated to a bridle over the rope halter but with lungeline attached to the rope halter. Young horse now lunges very nicely with bridle, saddle and side reins but I see a big difference having started with the rope halter. He is very big and very strong but we established some control right off the start with a rope halter. I do not plan to get a carrot stick or anything like that but I am now a believer in the rope halter and extensive ground work as a starting point.
I agree with the less is more/rope halter Buck Brannaman Glorified Groundwork approach. right now asking him to go in almost any forced frame is probably a physical overload for him. He has a race horse body, mind and muscle and the downside to chains over the nose and surcingle/bridle/side reins is you will teach him to lay on all of those aids as he is desperately scrambling to find his balance on the smallest circle of his life. He could be a willing, cooperative engaged horse, and unless he has the most insane natural balance, this is what you have set him up to do.
If you can concentrate on mastering walking/halt in a relaxed and easy manner in both directions, then add trot/walk/halt in both directions, encouraging him to do the trot pace where his natural balance is (this may be slower or faster than you find ideal, but it’s where HE is at and this is your starting point). Also don’t worry about where his face is, other than try to get him to gently follow his nose (the rope halter is useful in this regard). As these two steps become solid, ask for a little bit of canter periodically. One or two times around, asking him to go back to the trot (or walk) if he starts to build speed. If he has a quality transition, just the transition alone will ultimately improve the canter. But this is more an exercise about letting him learn it is not big deal and you will not force him to canter when he isn’t sure of his balance. Some horses come along quickly, others are less sure of themselves, but if you keep going back to the points where you are solid, he can take a deep breath and relax in knowing he can handle this part. And again, trot/walk transitions are useful tools in changing his mind and muscle.
Somewhere along the line as you have a solid WT (and are developing the canter), and you have a horse who can move in smaller and larger circles easily and willingly, put the surcingle back on, but leave the rope halter over the bridle and don’t attach the side reins to the bit. Do you entire workout and then the last 5 minutes hook up the side reins loosely, but just a bit more contact than where he naturally carries his head. Let him walk a few minutes in each direction. Over time you can reduce the time w/o side reins and increase the amount of work in side reins, gradually adjusting them to where you want them. For me personally I NEVER put the lunge line anywhere near the bit until I have a very educated horse. I would rather they go out and learn about contact with the bit via side reins (secondarily) and primarily with me in the tack. I hate when something goes wrong and you end up hauling/crunching their face/mouth with the lunge line. I just can’t see the value or lesson in that when I can accomplish the same thing with the halter over the bridle with no potential downside. This is how I handle all lunging, but with OTTBs where hanging on the face means GO FASTER… well it’s easy to see how yo can undo a lot of good work with one bad day.
But if you ask an OTTB to a) lunge, b) go a certain speed that is not his ideal place to be balanced, c) hold his head in a certain way and d) add a chain over the nose, you have just created not just ONE new thing for him to master, but three thingsallatonce and piled on the pressure with the chain to stop his last defense (speed/escape/wider circle). In some ways the round pen is the same issue. By all means use it to have a stop gap measure to keeping control when things go wrong, but don’t expect fence walls to create balance for you when all the above is can’t do the job. You need to master balance, rhythm and pace without walls and without extra gear to hang on, but rather with a pinky finger’s worth of pressure, otherwise it really isn’t going to translate to balance, rhythm and pace when you try to recreate it under saddle, if that makes sense?
[QUOTE=DMK;7622052]
I agree with the less is more/rope halter Buck Brannaman Glorified Groundwork approach. right now asking him to go in almost any forced frame is probably a physical overload for him. He has a race horse body, mind and muscle and the downside to chains over the nose and surcingle/bridle/side reins is you will teach him to lay on all of those aids as he is desperately scrambling to find his balance on the smallest circle of his life. He could be a willing, cooperative engaged horse, and unless he has the most insane natural balance, this is what you have set him up to do.
If you can concentrate on mastering walking/halt in a relaxed and easy manner in both directions, then add trot/walk/halt in both directions, encouraging him to do the trot pace where his natural balance is (this may be slower or faster than you find ideal, but it’s where HE is at and this is your starting point). Also don’t worry about where his face is, other than try to get him to gently follow his nose (the rope halter is useful in this regard). As these two steps become solid, ask for a little bit of canter periodically. One or two times around, asking him to go back to the trot (or walk) if he starts to build speed. If he has a quality transition, just the transition alone will ultimately improve the canter. But this is more an exercise about letting him learn it is not big deal and you will not force him to canter when he isn’t sure of his balance. Some horses come along quickly, others are less sure of themselves, but if you keep going back to the points where you are solid, he can take a deep breath and relax in knowing he can handle this part. And again, trot/walk transitions are useful tools in changing his mind and muscle.
Somewhere along the line as you have a solid WT (and are developing the canter), and you have a horse who can move in smaller and larger circles easily and willingly, put the surcingle back on, but leave the rope halter over the bridle and don’t attach the side reins to the bit. Do you entire workout and then the last 5 minutes hook up the side reins loosely, but just a bit more contact than where he naturally carries his head. Let him walk a few minutes in each direction. Over time you can reduce the time w/o side reins and increase the amount of work in side reins, gradually adjusting them to where you want them. For me personally I NEVER put the lunge line anywhere near the bit until I have a very educated horse. I would rather they go out and learn about contact with the bit via side reins (secondarily) and primarily with me in the tack. I hate when something goes wrong and you end up hauling/crunching their face/mouth with the lunge line. I just can’t see the value or lesson in that when I can accomplish the same thing with the halter over the bridle with no potential downside. This is how I handle all lunging, but with OTTBs where hanging on the face means GO FASTER… well it’s easy to see how yo can undo a lot of good work with one bad day.
But if you ask an OTTB to a) lunge, b) go a certain speed that is not his ideal place to be balanced, c) hold his head in a certain way and d) add a chain over the nose, you have just created not just ONE new thing for him to master, but three thingsallatonce and piled on the pressure with the chain to stop his last defense (speed/escape/wider circle). In some ways the round pen is the same issue. By all means use it to have a stop gap measure to keeping control when things go wrong, but don’t expect fence walls to create balance for you when all the above is can’t do the job. You need to master balance, rhythm and pace without walls and without extra gear to hang on, but rather with a pinky finger’s worth of pressure, otherwise it really isn’t going to translate to balance, rhythm and pace when you try to recreate it under saddle, if that makes sense?[/QUOTE]
Thank you for that. That makes total sense and I think I’m going to working with this Natural Horsemanship for a while with him. It’s a brand new hat for me, I’ll have to do some research, but it’s interesting and I can completely see the benefits.
UPDATE.
Bruno and I had a simple day. I took him out to the roundpen in just the rope halter and his boots on. He was so much more relaxed and willing to listen! Amazing what that simple thing can do! Less is more!
He was a little tense and quick when I asked him to yield his haunches. He would kind of run through the cross overs and then look at me with a worried look in his eye, so I added in cross over, cross over, cross over, walk out of it, whoa. And so on. He was a lot less reactive and a lot happier. Lots of sighing and licking and chewing.
I don’t know if I did any or all of it correctly, but at the end he was willing to stop when I just said the word whoa, walk when I took even a step toward his haunches and back up on command. I didn’t pressure him into the trot today. We were really just getting back to basics and making it simple and relaxing for both of us.
Thank you for all the suggestions. I am open to any and all if you guys have more. I need all the help I can get with this guy! He stumps me!
Thank you, DMK! My 10-year-old OTTB mare is a late-comer to the restarting party, and I’m grateful for the insight that you’ve added to the process.
Glad to hear you had a good session, OP! I think if you’re making it simple and relaxing, then you’re doing it correctly :yes:
Why longe at all? This horse is broke to ride and lungeing is obviously creating unhappiness for him. Just get on and get on with your regular starting-out flatwork.
[QUOTE=DMK;7622052]
I agree with the less is more/rope halter Buck Brannaman Glorified Groundwork approach. right now asking him to go in almost any forced frame is probably a physical overload for him. He has a race horse body, mind and muscle and the downside to chains over the nose and surcingle/bridle/side reins is you will teach him to lay on all of those aids as he is desperately scrambling to find his balance on the smallest circle of his life. He could be a willing, cooperative engaged horse, and unless he has the most insane natural balance, this is what you have set him up to do.
If you can concentrate on mastering walking/halt in a relaxed and easy manner in both directions, then add trot/walk/halt in both directions, encouraging him to do the trot pace where his natural balance is (this may be slower or faster than you find ideal, but it’s where HE is at and this is your starting point). Also don’t worry about where his face is, other than try to get him to gently follow his nose (the rope halter is useful in this regard). As these two steps become solid, ask for a little bit of canter periodically. One or two times around, asking him to go back to the trot (or walk) if he starts to build speed. If he has a quality transition, just the transition alone will ultimately improve the canter. But this is more an exercise about letting him learn it is not big deal and you will not force him to canter when he isn’t sure of his balance. Some horses come along quickly, others are less sure of themselves, but if you keep going back to the points where you are solid, he can take a deep breath and relax in knowing he can handle this part. And again, trot/walk transitions are useful tools in changing his mind and muscle.
Somewhere along the line as you have a solid WT (and are developing the canter), and you have a horse who can move in smaller and larger circles easily and willingly, put the surcingle back on, but leave the rope halter over the bridle and don’t attach the side reins to the bit. Do you entire workout and then the last 5 minutes hook up the side reins loosely, but just a bit more contact than where he naturally carries his head. Let him walk a few minutes in each direction. Over time you can reduce the time w/o side reins and increase the amount of work in side reins, gradually adjusting them to where you want them. For me personally I NEVER put the lunge line anywhere near the bit until I have a very educated horse. I would rather they go out and learn about contact with the bit via side reins (secondarily) and primarily with me in the tack. I hate when something goes wrong and you end up hauling/crunching their face/mouth with the lunge line. I just can’t see the value or lesson in that when I can accomplish the same thing with the halter over the bridle with no potential downside. This is how I handle all lunging, but with OTTBs where hanging on the face means GO FASTER… well it’s easy to see how yo can undo a lot of good work with one bad day.
But if you ask an OTTB to a) lunge, b) go a certain speed that is not his ideal place to be balanced, c) hold his head in a certain way and d) add a chain over the nose, you have just created not just ONE new thing for him to master, but three thingsallatonce and piled on the pressure with the chain to stop his last defense (speed/escape/wider circle). In some ways the round pen is the same issue. By all means use it to have a stop gap measure to keeping control when things go wrong, but don’t expect fence walls to create balance for you when all the above is can’t do the job. You need to master balance, rhythm and pace without walls and without extra gear to hang on, but rather with a pinky finger’s worth of pressure, otherwise it really isn’t going to translate to balance, rhythm and pace when you try to recreate it under saddle, if that makes sense?[/QUOTE]
Excellent post. I wish everyone either starting a young horse or restarting an OTTB would read this.
To everyone who answered my questions and elaborated on training ideas, thank you. I am new to the professional side of the industry and I am like a sponge. The more information, the better. Bruno is a challenging horse not only for me, but for my trainer as well. It’s not going to happen overnight but I have a feeling once it clicks, he is going to be quite the horse.
