Lunging a Young Horse - Suggestions? *UPDATE PAGE 2*

[The_Fault_In_Our_Sta]

Hello everyone! I work at a barn as an assistant trainer at a barn in Northern California. Recently I have been working with a young OTTB named Bruno. He is roughly 4 years old, raced briefly and then sat in a field for a while before being given to us. He is sweet tempered on the ground, very quiet… until you ask him to do anything that requires him to work. He is significantly weaker to the right. (Weaker being that he is less willing to track under himself with his right hind.) We have been lunging him with one side rein attached (inside side rein, that way he doesn’t feel restricted and can’t just hang on the side reins for support) and it is fairly loose.

He is fairly badly behaved on the lunge line and has even gotten away from one of the other girls who works with him causing havoc in the indoor when he decided to go ripping around the arena afterward. He has been known to go from 0 to 100 in .5 seconds and will lay all of his body weight into the person lunging him and if they aren’t experienced enough to control him, he gets loose. His friskiness really only happens when another horse is in the arena (passing or nearby). I had him in the outdoor one day with no one else in there and he was perfect, little to no pulling and no stupidity, so it leads me to think he might get claustrophobic/worried when other horses are near him. I had the idea of taking him into the round pen so that he can’t get away, and even if he did, he wouldn’t really have any place to go. (The reason I haven’t lunged him out there since I started working for my trainer, 2 months ago, is the round pen was closed for a while due to it being leveled and basically redone.) The round pen stopped the constant pulling and flying backwards, but instead when we were going right, he would constantly whip himself around and try to go left. Every time I did this, I would stop it almost immediately and make him go right, this happened about 6 times before he decided to actually listen and be quiet.

My questions is a) how in the world do I stop a horse like that from laying all his weight into the lunge line and pulling me across the arena? and b) was I right to bring him into the round pen so that he’s on his own and I can really work with him? Also any suggestions on getting him to be all together better on the lunge line would be welcome.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=The Fault In Our Stars;7615899]
Hello everyone! I work at a barn as an assistant trainer at a barn in Northern California. Recently I have been working with a young OTTB named Bruno. He is roughly 4 years old, raced briefly and then sat in a field for a while before being given to us. He is sweet tempered on the ground, very quiet… until you ask him to do anything that requires him to work. He is significantly weaker to the right. (Weaker being that he is less willing to track under himself with his right hind.) We have been lunging him with one side rein attached (inside side rein, that way he doesn’t feel restricted and can’t just hang on the side reins for support) and it is fairly loose.

He is fairly badly behaved on the lunge line and has even gotten away from one of the other girls who works with him causing havoc in the indoor when he decided to go ripping around the arena afterward. He has been known to go from 0 to 100 in .5 seconds and will lay all of his body weight into the person lunging him and if they aren’t experienced enough to control him, he gets loose. His friskiness really only happens when another horse is in the arena (passing or nearby). I had him in the outdoor one day with no one else in there and he was perfect, little to no pulling and no stupidity, so it leads me to think he might get claustrophobic/worried when other horses are near him. I had the idea of taking him into the round pen so that he can’t get away, and even if he did, he wouldn’t really have any place to go. (The reason I haven’t lunged him out there since I started working for my trainer, 2 months ago, is the round pen was closed for a while due to it being leveled and basically redone.) The round pen stopped the constant pulling and flying backwards, but instead when we were going right, he would constantly whip himself around and try to go left. Every time I did this, I would stop it almost immediately and make him go right, this happened about 6 times before he decided to actually listen and be quiet.

My questions is a) how in the world do I stop a horse like that from laying all his weight into the lunge line and pulling me across the arena? and b) was I right to bring him into the round pen so that he’s on his own and I can really work with him? Also any suggestions on getting him to be all together better on the lunge line would be welcome.[/QUOTE]

Have you tried a chain over his nose, assuming you are just using a halter? I’d also only have someone experienced lunging him, they learn (bad) behavior fast.

Also, have you considered a true lunging rig with the standard sursingle (gosh that spelling looks odd), loose side reins etc? Of course, acclimation to this is best done by experienced hands but just a thought.

[Keg-A-Bacchus]

I got a Swedish Warmblood in once who was the same way. He had developed the nasty habit of turning away from his lunger and bolt, getting loose. I stripped him of all his tack and put him in a rope halter so I had a bit more control. I kept him on a smaller circle and every time he turned to bolt I sat back, lowered my center of gravity, gave a loud “ahhhhh ahhhhhh!” and slammed him to a complete stop. I made him stand for a few seconds then calmly asked him to go back to what he was doing. Took a week and the behavior was gone. I got dragged 30 feet a few times but I held on for dear life until I spun him to stop. Lots of praise while doing it well and kept the sessions short. I then taught him to lunge quietly off of voice including transitions within each gait from snail slow to huge moving and a verbal relax/stretch cue. My advice is I use the round pen for getting them forward but for teaching control/quiet I use the lunge. I never attach side reins or anything until I have a calm, quiet lunger. I feel they make too many of them nervous and tense. Just a halter and the lunge until they are quiet walk/trot/canter.

[midstride]

You’re essentially restrating him, so he needs structure. Lunging isn’t just for running off energy, it can be wonderful training tool.

Like Pennywell said, proper rig and one person. commands that are clear and simple. Pay attention to how you are standing and how you are asking. Just start with walk and halt on a smaller circle, why trot or canter if he isn’t listening at walk? Also, the round pen is good, but doesn’t mean he has to go free rein yet, don’t know if that is how you did it or not.

But break it down into small pieces, and build on good solid beginnings.

[findeight]

Um…lunging any horse in a big arena with other horses being ridden is questionable and depends on good behavior from all and experienced handler/rider to be anywhere near safe.

Basically this youngster is being set up for failure when put in this situation. He can’t learn proper behavior this way and is liable to hurt somebody, their horse or himself while he does learn he is bigger and can throw his weight around as he pleases. The other horses moving around him are distracting at best and bring out the herd behavior, especially as he gets stressed, frustrated and upset.

Fix that and you fix the horse. Proper equipment, proper, smaller enclosure or use a corner of the otherwise EMPTY arena and, please, experienced handler only. Set him up to succeed instead of going in knowing it will be ugly. And dangerous.

[LookmaNohands]

I could write a book on this but have no time.

In a brief nutshell, teach him to give to pressure not to pull against it.

[cada931]

I’m going through similar training, and I found #14 on lunging in this article was extremely helpful -

http://www.horseadoption.com/thoroughbred-tips/

It was a revelation to me that there’s nothing wrong with sticking to the left until you have things more established. And that there’s no rule about accomplishing all 3 gaits in both directions right off the bat.

I’d try the round pen, and definitely stay out of the arena when others are there. Take things right back to “pay attention to me” and get walk and whoa well-established first. Short positive sessions for both of you.

[merrygoround]

When longeing I use a bridle, cavesson, both side reins, adjusted to the level of the horse’s ability, and either a saddle or surcingle. In a horse known to misbehave I will dispense with the cavesson and add a chain end to the longe line, first going under the chin, and last going over the nose. I consider the chain approach really heavy duty, but absolutely necessary in some cases. I usually start all horses with a mindset that I’d best be on guard. so much easier to not allow the start of misbehavior, than fix it later.

As already mentioned, even with a big arena, longeing with others in the arena is begging for trouble.

For handler, helmet and gloves are mandatory, paddock boots a given.

Longeing correctly is far from as simple as it can appear in the hands of some one really good at it.

[pompeiii]

I have one that learned how to get away from whoever was lunging. Never a good thing. A year or so ago I finally decided that I wanted (and needed) to start lunging again, put in a round pen, and started back at the beginning.

A trainer friend of mine worked with me in the beginning. We started with just a halter and soon realized that wasn’t going to work. She had me wrap a chain with vet wrap and electrical tape and wrap it around his face (connecting 1 end of the chain to the other end) and then attach the lunge line to the chain. This way, if he was well behaved, the chain did nothing, but if I needed it, it was there.

We started just working on basics at the walk in a small circle. Basically walking and halting. It was halt when I asked, not when he felt like it. We did the same adding in the trot, keeping as much control as possible, working on very basic commands. Now, because this horse new how to lunge, we were able to introduce things more quickly once he realized that we were in charge (if he wanted to act stupid, he could, but acting stupid usually ended up with him working harder rather than getting out of work). After we had the very basics down at the walk and trot, we started sending him out into larger circles, bringing him back in, back out, etc. Also started working on changing direction, first from the halt, then the walk, then trot. A year later, he’s very good on the lunge line and while he still occasionally does something stupid, it’s usually halfhearted and since I no longer react and continue to send him forward, it’s a non issue.

(I don’t canter on the lunge line, mostly because my guy is older and his joints don’t need it.)

We also did a lot of other ground work in the round pen either before or after lunging. Leading, halting, backing, etc. This extra ground work really helped on the lunge line.

[HicksteadFan]

I completely agree with some things mentioned and completely disagree with others. Just my personal opinion on how I would do it.
No gear, that could make things more confusing for him. And I believe sometimes they do have to “get the bucks out” until they understand that you aren’t intimidated and they have to keep working.
Yup start in the round pen. Very safe as you aren’t attached and the horse can’t run away from you. There’s no problem with sticking to walk and light trot on the right side until he gets some more muscle. And you’re doing the right thing by not letting him turn and go left.
I like the idea of a rope halter for lunging, gives more control but not so harsh as a chain or a bridle. Like someone mentioned, teach him to give to pressure. When he starts to pull give him a yank or series of yanks until he comes back. If he tries to back away (which I’m sure he will) push him forward. I would do it in a small space so he can’t pull back and take off on you. I find just pulling (or pushing) on a horse never works. They can ignore it. He’s yanking you off your feet, so do something that he doesn’t like. You can even do little exercises in hand like lateral flexion or showmanship.
Seems like you know what you’re doing so I won’t write you a detailed book here. Whatever you are doing at a certain moment (walk, trot, canter) keep trying to do that no matte what he is doing. And when he gets more under control I wouldn’t have a problem lunging him in a big ring with other horse’s working in it. As long as it’s safe.

[Justice]

I would put the horse in a neck stretcher (works great for horses off the track), make sure you are running the lungeline through one side of the bit and over the poll and attaching to the other. You need to teach him to lunge. Teaching a horse to lunge is a two person job, ideally. One person holds the line and stands rock solid. The other person works the whip. This will put an end to the turning around. Do not move to the trot until he gets it at the walk. Don’t canter until he can trot, walk, whoa, trot, etc. Teach him to whoa by saying whoa as the person working the line guides him into the wall/rail/pen rail. A green bean should not be lunging with other horses in the ring. Beware of getting an OTTB too fit on the line. I usually use it as a tool to get them used to the neck stretcher for 5 minutes in each direction and then climb aboard.

[RugBug]

the answer is really do the ground work that needs to be done and then move on.

Get a Rope halter. Teach him first to give the hind end before you even attempt longeing. When you bring his head around, he needs to step under from behind. First time he does it, release the pressure. Rinse, repeat until you can basically do a turn on the forehand just by bringing his head around and stepping toward his hind end. Be sure to rub on him a bit for doing it right.

Next, teach him to “longe” in a circle around you on the lead line at the walk. He should move off from a soft feel. You’ll need something to drive him forward when he doesn’t want to go (the end of the lead, a dressage whip(but make it long so he can’t kick), a flag, whatever). Once he is going, you will stop him by asking him to yield his haunches. He might keep spinning a bit, but just keep asking until he stops and then praise. He’ll get it. Rinse, repeat. NOW you are ready to start longeing. You’ve spent the time to actually teach the horse to yield to you, so you should get much better results. The throwing the shoulder at you, head away and running off is the #1 trick in the book and really hard to recover from if you let them get all the way around. It’s a HUGE disobedience that is solved by teaching ground manners, not be teaching them to longe.

Honestly, if you’re working with a young horse, it is in EVERYONE’s best interest to do it properly…so start with the basics of ground work and get the horse broke.

(and yes, this is a little “natural horsemanship-y”, but after doing a Buck Brannaman clinic, I realized a few things…mostly that even though my horses have nice ground manners, they could by SOOOOO much nicer if I put the time in every day and that we often skip a whole lot of steps in the name of “getting things done” and actually slows us down in the end).

[HunterJumper_3]

So in the round pen, I’d definitely put a chain over his nose (unless you’re using a bridle). If using a bridle, maybe a full-cheek snaffle would help redirect some of that pressure from your hands and help him understand better. Carry a long longe whip with you, so he knows not to get to close, and respects your space! That will also help with stopping, turning, etc. Like HicksteadFan said, longe him in just a halter to get his bucks out (or maybe turn him out first?). Then if he calmed down, put on the side rein(s)/surcingle/gear. Maybe one of those Pessoa longeing things would help…I don’t know. Whatever happens, good luck with your guy!

[The_Fault_In_Our_Sta]

I must not have been as clear as I thought I was in my post. I lunge this horse typically in a surcingle, inside side rein attached but not restrictive or super tight (outside is not attached to bit, don’t want to make him too overwhelmed.) and in his bridle which is a loose ring snaffle. The cavesson we have for lunging has a rubber loose ring which he gave little to no notice of, so I decided to use his own bridle that way I had SOMETHING in the way of communication to him.

I really loved RugBug’s suggestions. I will definitely be trying those suggestions on Thursday when I work with him again. I have never really spent a lot of time on ground work before, always skipping to, like you said, getting things accomplished instead of taking the time to actually be patient and accomplish small things.

HicksteadFan, I have access to a rope halter, are you saying to literally strip him everything except the rope halter and lunge him in that? I guess its the ever terrifying fact that ‘less is more’.

Thank you for all the suggestions, I would love to hear more. This is a whole new avenue for me and I sometimes get a little nervous when dealing with him because he can be quite unpredictable and has, on more than one occasion, ripped the living crap out of my arms and shoulders leaving me sore.

Also, side note, the only place I had to lunge him while the roundpen was being fixed was in the arenas with other horses and riders in there with me. I admit, I did feel unsafe, however, I really didn’t have a choice.

Also, I absolutely adore OTTBs, they are some of the best horses and usually end up being the most loving and rewarding, I just want to do right by Bruno and make sure I am giving him the best opportunity to be well behaved and actually start gaining some muscle and strength. If anyone has any other suggestions for lunging him or even exercises on the ground/in hand that I can do with him, I’d love to hear.

Thanks again for the suggestions, I will keep all of you updated. Rome wasn’t built in a day right?

[The_Fault_In_Our_Sta]

[QUOTE=HunterJumper<3;7617361]
So in the round pen, I’d definitely put a chain over his nose (unless you’re using a bridle). If using a bridle, maybe a full-cheek snaffle would help redirect some of that pressure from your hands and help him understand better. Carry a long longe whip with you, so he knows not to get to close, and respects your space! That will also help with stopping, turning, etc. Like HicksteadFan said, longe him in just a halter to get his bucks out (or maybe turn him out first?). Then if he calmed down, put on the side rein(s)/surcingle/gear. Maybe one of those Pessoa longeing things would help…I don’t know. Whatever happens, good luck with your guy![/QUOTE]

Bruno lives outside 24/7 so turnout isn’t the issue. He isn’t standing in his stall all day, which is very nice, he is just plain green and inexperienced. Thanks for the well wishes though! I wish he was as quiet as he was while grooming and hand walking. As soon as I ask him to do anything that involves him having to put forth any effort, it’s like I get a completely different horse. He’s a smart cookie, just a little bull headed.

[alto]

He is sweet tempered on the ground, very quiet… until you ask him to do anything that requires him to work.

Has he been scoped for ulcers?

[QUOTE=The Fault In Our Stars;7617714]
Bruno lives outside 24/7 so turnout isn’t the issue. [/QUOTE]
Definitely a good thing for any horse, but not a preventative or treatment for ulcers.

I wish he was as quiet as he was while grooming and hand walking. As soon as I ask him to do anything that involves him having to put forth any effort, it’s like I get a completely different horse.

Again this immediately makes me suspect ulcers - which unfortunately can only be determined/ruled out through scoping (which may run you $200 to $1000 depending on area)

[x]

Longing in the round pen so he isn’t distracted, and so he doesn’t get away is a very good idea. Longing him with a properly fitted caveson, a chain over the nose, or a longe line run through the near side of the bit, over the poll and clipped to the off side of the bit are all ways you could try to see which offers the most control. As far as turning and facing you, you need to be quick and move toward the rear of him with the longe to not allow him to do this. Alternatively, if he’s really, really bad on a longe, working him with two reins (long lining him), with the reins throught the side rings and one around behind him can help with this sort of a horse (long reining on a circle, like longing) and can give you a measure of more control if you need it.

[HicksteadFan]

@The Fault In Our Stars;7617702

HicksteadFan, I have access to a rope halter, are you saying to literally strip him everything except the rope halter and lunge him in that? I guess its the ever terrifying fact that ‘less is more’.

Yes that is what I’m saying. To teach him what you want, I don’t mean lunge him like that forever. I never put anything more than I need to teach a horse something. Like when you’re leading, you don’t go straight to the bridle, you teach them to lead in a halter first. Once he understands he has to go when and where you say go and not pull on you, then add the surcingle side reins etc. Just my opinion. There are many ways to do it and many ways that work.

[cada931]

[QUOTE=alto;7617892]
Has he been scoped for ulcers?

Definitely a good thing for any horse, but not a preventative or treatment for ulcers.

Again this immediately makes me suspect ulcers - which unfortunately can only be determined/ruled out through scoping (which may run you $200 to $1000 depending on area)[/QUOTE]

It’s only been a week, but after doing some research I started both of my OTTB’s on a pound/day of alfalfa cubes for ulcers. The definitely-ulcer-prone gelding is cribbing less, and they have both been better to work with - I don’t think it’s solely due to my training skillz Neither have been hotter, in fact they’ve been cuddlier!

Not super-scientific but inexpensive and not likely to do any harm…

[The_Fault_In_Our_Sta]

I was actually considering the possibility that he does have ulcers. He doesn’t display the typical symptoms (off his feed, colicy type symptoms) but like I said, anything that involves work, he gets nervous/naughty.

Also, I forgot to mention this as I thought it was just him being evasive. He tends to bite and kick at the surcingle on the right side. I’ve checked him over and over again making sure there isn’t something on the surcingle or where the girth goes to bother him over there and came up with nothing so I’ve been chalking it up to him making excuses because as soon as I ask him to walk or trot forward, the kicking and biting at the right side stops. (This only happens when the surcingle is on, no other time.) Now that I think about it, that totally screams ulcers doesn’t it?