Do you have the budget to work with a trainer? Even a lesson every other week or so to get some in person help with the problem. That is going to be more beneficial than trying to get internet strangers to help you.
Until you can get a pro. Stop lunging the poor thing. She’s confused, pissed, and sour and one of you will end up hurt.
Pain is number one. Have a vet out to take a look. If nothing is off I’d say she is sour. I know if i lunged my horse like that all the time he’d be over it also. If she were mine I’d get o walk for 10 min trot for 5 or 10 min and break that up with walking and then walk her down for 15 min. Getting on and trotting for 10 min and being done is much worse then what I described above. You could even throw in a canter each way down the long side of the ring after you’ve rode a few times like above and all goes well. Friend has a horse she has had for 8 years now and he tied up the other day out of no where. He was ridden for a very short period. About 15 min and mostly walk but it has not happened since so far. Even just get on and walk around the barn and not in a ring if you can for 10 or 15 min would be better for my brains lol then walking around a ring.
I’m disappointed 17 people “liked” Meup’s post. Horses do not lie and the horse is either hurting, does not understand, or frazzled.
If it is possible to have someone watch or try her, you might find the key to
this.
In my entire life, I’ve never felt the need to rough up a horse, they understand discipline very well, but done differently.
As others have said, definitely have a vet as funds allow. Consider a chiropractor. Check equipment fit. And if she bucks or kicks at you again, snap the lunge whip at her heels and make sure the lash has some contact. I disagree with Meupd and that is a good way to make an upset horse MORE upset, but at the same time you NEED to let her know that’s not acceptable.
I am surprised people are thinking lunging for a year is unorthodox. In the DR world with classical training that is how it is done.
OP your mare sounds sour. With loose stifles you don’t want to be lunging anyway. Definitely check the status of her stifles, and take her out of the ring. If you are positive she is not an EPSSM candidate, ride her on the trails. She just sounds miserable from your description. It sounds like you care a lot for her and will do what’s right for her.
I don’t think it’s the lunging for a year, I put a years worth of ground work into my mare before I started really asking anything of her under saddle.
It’s the lunging everyday for a year that made me raise my eyebrow a little bit. Lunging can be really good for them in the beginning. It did wonders for my relationship with my mare as well as her fitness, I used it in a program with ground driving and light riding as well though, and it wasn’t an everyday thing. I am all for taking the time to get through each step of the starting process.
I did notice in another of the OP’s posts that the ring hasn’t been dragged in years. That can create a serious pack that makes it hard on the horse’s joints, as well as possibly uneven footing. Add that in with constant lunging, loose stifles, and the fact that the mare is now 12 and worked in spurts, so her fitness level is not great… I’m not surprised that she’s acting out.
I absolutely thing that the OP is doing the right thing for seeking help, but I think that it needs to be from a professional that can see the situation first hand, then a bunch of people on the internet who are trying to figure out what’s going on from a description. Even the pros have pros to help them.
FWIW, my mare got sassy at one point and decided that “try to kick Mom’s head in on the lunge line” was a super duper fun game. I handled it the way that Meup described. She got a crack on the fanny with the lunge whip and never tried it again. Lesson learned. The situation wasn’t nearly the same though. My girl likes to see just how far she can take things.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7202996]
I’m disappointed 17 people “liked” Meup’s post. Horses do not lie and the horse is either hurting, does not understand, or frazzled.
If it is possible to have someone watch or try her, you might find the key to
this.
In my entire life, I’ve never felt the need to rough up a horse, they understand discipline very well, but done differently.[/QUOTE]
I can’t speak for others, but although I am generally a very tactful, patient horseman, I simply do.not.allow my horses to behave aggressively toward me (or anyone else.) That includes situations where they are not feeling well.
Of course, I’ve also always taken the time to train my horses in a progressive fashion so that they understand what is expected and thus, I don’t have to “rough a horse up,” to accomplish what I want to do with them.
We set fair, clear limits on what is acceptable behavior and what is not very early on, and that conditioning is what prevents them from doing something like striking out at a handler even in the event that they are in pain. IMO, horses are simply too big and too dangerous not to install those boundaries very early; learning that lesson not only protects the horse’s handlers but is also an education that will serve the horse very well in later life, where good manners will help ensure that they find good homes.
There are many other ways a horse can indicate distress that do not include aggression … but of course that also requires a handler that is observant enough to notice what might be subtle signs of discomfort and address them before it gets to the point where the horse becomes violent.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7202996]
I’m disappointed 17 people “liked” Meup’s post. Horses do not lie and the horse is either hurting, does not understand, or frazzled.
If it is possible to have someone watch or try her, you might find the key to
this.
In my entire life, I’ve never felt the need to rough up a horse, they understand discipline very well, but done differently.[/QUOTE]
Somebody once asked me to help them free longe a horse, which personally I am not a fan of but whatever.
Half way through the session I noticed a change in the horse’s body language and told the person, twice, to “use the tassel.” The horse was cutting turns more and more, was challenging the “go” commands more and more, and was not holding a distance and I didn’t like the look of it. The horse’s subtle challenges were going unanswered, he was toeing the line more and more.
I was ignored, both times, and sixty seconds later after the second time I said it, the horse cut in too close around the short side and they trotted in close to wave the stick part of the longe whip at it, (tassle held in, of course), and promptly took a double barrel to the chest and got laid out in the middle of the arena.
At that point I did not beat the horse because I was too busy peeling the owner out of the dirt. A sharp flick with the tassel a minute prior would have prevented it.
[I can’t speak for others, but although I am generally a very tactful, patient horseman, I simply do.not.allow my horses to behave aggressively toward me (or anyone else.) That includes situations where they are not feeling well.]
THIS.
[QUOTE=bathsheba8542;7203743]
[I can’t speak for others, but although I am generally a very tactful, patient horseman, I simply do.not.allow my horses to behave aggressively toward me (or anyone else.) That includes situations where they are not feeling well.]
THIS.[/QUOTE]
And another agreement with THIS! Yes, this horse may be sore/sour but it may also not be! But, no matter what a sore horse should never be agressive…do you think a vet will allow an agressive horse stay agressive with him/her while they are trying to treat him? yeah, I think not so why would you as an owner allow your horse to be aggressive with you? Definatly I agree, a vet should evaluate this horse but under no circumstances should it be allowed to swing it’s butt to the owner and kick out at her while on the lunge line…
There’s nothing tactful about boastfully proclaiming you’d leave a blistering remark of the whip on a horse’s backside. Physical violence with an animal that is more than twice your size is never an answer. I agree with your idea: that is, that a horse should never disrespect or try to harm you – but I don’t believe that with most horses striking them is the way to resolve their issues.
“Striking” was not offered as a suggestion for “resolving their issues”. It was cited as an appropriate response to a horse turning tail toward you and letting hooves fly. I’m guessing this horse isn’t shod behind, but even barefoot, even just one foot making contact can have devastating, if not fatal consequences. Kicking out towards a human in aggression is a serious offense and “No, no, Horsie, please don’t do that,” isn’t the way I’d deal with it. I like my horses to KNOW and remember that flinging hooves in my direction, whether front or hind, is a very, VERY bad idea. I never hit, I don’t kick, but if I’m lungeing you and you show me your ass and kick at me, you’re getting intimately acquainted with my whip. I guess the way I feel is that there are “beating offenses” and “non-beating offenses”. 1000+ pound beastie with rocks for feet trying to knock my block off = beating offense.
Now, in this case, it sounds like the kicking out/frustration on the part of the horse was precipitated by unclear cues and direction from the human, but it still shouldn’t be ignored as there’s always risk of escalation.
OP, are you lungeing in a halter? Off the loose ring at the bottom? Other than a lungeing cavesson with a swivel ring on the nose, that’s the only way I can imagine you could make a flying change of direction on the lunge. And knowing that tacking up is too much effort for you, halter seems a more likely candidate than cavesson. If you are lungeing in nothing but a halter, this is part of your problem. Add to that the lack of a proper whip, the horse’s state of fitness and the infrequency of the work schedule and it’s a wonder you weren’t having these issues long before now. Have you stopped all attempts at changing direction on the fly? It sounds as if the poor mare is just worried to death about when you’ll step out in front of her again and chase her into a new pattern. The next time you lunge, why not tack her up and run the lunge through the bit ring on the near side, up over her poll and then clip to the bit ring on the off side. The increased communication and leverage you’ll have will make a world of difference. Then change directions only from a halt after switching your line from one side to the other. Choosing a different place to lunge would probably be a good idea as well. Either a different place in the ring or somewhere outside the ring. It will help to break her negative associations with your usual spot. Long lining when you can’t ride also sounds like a great idea.
If the above poster was really trying to help the OP she would not have used such disdainful language - as often happens, posters often do use this forum for self grandstanding.
A lot of horses will buck or kick on the lungeline - you’all know they will. It is not an indictable offence, but with proper calm handling will go away on its own. When a horse is just showing its hip, it is showing it is not soft and that is a bit rude, too, but they have to learn. Sometimes they just kick up in the pen because they don’t want to get caught - a few seconds later, and the horse is his usual polite self.
Put it on a program, give enough exercise and handling etc…get some help, and it is not such a huge deal.
“The above poster” absolutely intended to help the OP. In fact, she even gave some advice for “putting the horse on a program”. Kicking up and kicking at are different. The OP described kicking at.
Then you should realize that nothing you have posted rules out the possibility of PSSM
and I will try to get the Vet out. I want a Chiropractor to come out and look at her but funds are limited.
All the more reason to do a 3-6 month trial on a PSSM diet.
Isolating these statements, try the diet - it won’t hurt her & may help her.
There’s a good deal of discussion on the board about EPSM PSSM & links to an Online Group. Please give it some consideration.
[QUOTE=Lucassb;7203653]
I can’t speak for others, but although I am generally a very tactful, patient horseman, I simply do.not.allow my horses to behave aggressively toward me (or anyone else.) That includes situations where they are not feeling well.
Of course, I’ve also always taken the time to train my horses in a progressive fashion so that they understand what is expected and thus, I don’t have to “rough a horse up,” to accomplish what I want to do with them.
We set fair, clear limits on what is acceptable behavior and what is not very early on, and that conditioning is what prevents them from doing something like striking out at a handler even in the event that they are in pain. IMO, horses are simply too big and too dangerous not to install those boundaries very early; learning that lesson not only protects the horse’s handlers but is also an education that will serve the horse very well in later life, where good manners will help ensure that they find good homes.
There are many other ways a horse can indicate distress that do not include aggression … but of course that also requires a handler that is observant enough to notice what might be subtle signs of discomfort and address them before it gets to the point where the horse becomes violent.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think anyone could have stated it better than this.
I know the OP said she would quit lunging for the time being… but- as a public service announcement - lunging should be done with a lunge whip and you should be wearing a helmet. Every time, every horse. the only reason my wife is alive today is that she is very lucky. I hope no one else has to go thru the trainer calling to say “your wife was kicked in the head and is on her way to the ER”.
Good point, Ray, and I hope your wife is fine now.
Yes, she is fine. Thank you. Just a few stitches. The horse was definitely not trying to kick her, just getting his ya-yas out. Still…
We all learn some lessons the hard way. Some safety precautions when lunging are really important.
Ditto for lunge whip AND a helmet; every time
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