Lunging styles vent

[alibi_18]

@Equkelly

Also on lunging, I don’t don’t get why anyone would discipline for bucking on the line. The whole reason my horse is usually on a lunge line is to burn a bit of energy and stretch out. If she needs to get a buck out of her system, that’s fine. Better than her doing it while I’m on her.

Because technically lunging is for work, getting their attention, warming up and muscling, not burning energy.
It’s good way to instill work ethic.

If your horse learns not to buck on the lunge and be attentive - in a « at work mode » - than it won’t do it undersaddle too.

To me, they can buck while at liberty, and liberty time needs to be provided.

Also I don’t mean liberty work, because I also don’t « provoke / chase » my horses when we are working.

If one has no real place for their horse to steam off, than well, ok I guess.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

Context is important.

If I’m at a multi-day show where there is no turnout, I’m not going to get after my horse if he bucks a few times, does a prancey-dance, and acts a little bit like a fool for a minute or two on the lunge line. And I would typically be lunging without tack.

If I’m at home, my expectations are different. The horse will typically be tacked up and lunging is work time, not play time.

[Equkelly]

@alibi_18

Because technically lunging is for work, getting their attention, warming up and muscling, not burning energy.
It’s good way to instill work ethic.

If your horse learns not to buck on the lunge and be attentive - in a « at work mode » - than it won’t do it undersaddle too.

To me, they can buck while at liberty, and liberty time needs to be provided.

Also I don’t mean liberty work, because I also don’t « provoke / chase » my horses when we are working.

If one has no real place for their horse to steam off, than well, ok I guess.

I used to have that mindset but I don’t anymore. If you need to buck that bad and get it out that’s fine. I’m not encouraging it but I’m also not going to discipline for it either. Mine gets 24/7 turnout so she has plenty of an outlet for her energy but I think sometimes they all have a weird day. Whether it’s windy, she doesn’t feel great, she’s spooking at the neighbor cows, whatever. I’d rather her express herself and let me know somethings up rather than bottle it in. I’ve had this attitude for a few years now and my mare NEVER bucks under saddle and rarely bucks on the lunge line and shes 5.

[endlessclimb]

Yep, this. Even if they’re fired up and WANT to buck, they need to learn to contain that when a rope is on them.

And I’m not sure what people think when they think discipline. I’m not going to beat the horse or anything. But I certainly am not going to let a bucking fit continue unfettered - I’m going to transition, whoa, make the circle a lot smaller, switch directions… whatever it takes to get the horse to think “oh yeah, work” again.

My horses receive lots of turn out. They can blow off their steam there, not in the 1.5 hours of the day that I have them in my hands.

[Equkelly]

@TheDBYC

Oh, I agree! It’s just something that’s always had me scratching my head. I’ve done a little Western riding - mostly barrels & pushing cattle. In both I can imagine situations where the horse’s split second decision-making could save our a$$es. I think your assessment is correct. Most of the Parelli people in particular that I’ve met don’t seem to actually ride much.

I don’t even think it’s just Parelli, there’s a few others that have this mindset of “do what I say or else.” I’ve said it before, but I think natural horsemanship is just for untalented riders with ego problems. That’s why if the horse is doing something bad, or incorrect, or whatever its always because the horse is “dIsReSpEcTfUL”. I grew up doing it and idolized Parelli, Clinton Anderson and all those guys but I was like 12. If you’re still following them as an adult and not seeing through it… yikes

[Scribbler]

There’s a wide spectrum of ground work techniques that are useful and thoughtful and then there is dumbed down NH mass marketed to beginners and nervous adult re-riders.

The Parelli stuff as described here is only going to work with rather complacent horses that wouldn’t give an experienced handler any trouble. A hotter or more sensitive horse would just be fried.

The number one thing for training horses is having a good sense of timing and release. I’ve met beginners that have it especially with dog training or balance/speed sports in their background.

But most beginners have none and some lack proprioception to an amazing degree. You can’t influence a horses body if you don’t know where your own body parts are in space.

[Incantation]

NH is just like any other discipline. There are good trainers and bad trainers. There should be no fear involved. Warwick Schiller in particular develops the opposite in the horse, a deep trusting bond.
John Lyons is very good too, if you follow his methods, like he does, you have a calm, trusting horse. I attended a clinic with his son years ago, which proved my point. The same methods that with John lead to a calm trusting partner, created stressed and anxious horses when misapplied by his son. He pushed too much.

[Tarlo_Farm]

When I longe/lunge the kid’s pony before they get on, it’s to be sure she has her “wiggles out,” meaning I want to see if she’s going to buck or misbehave. If she does, I’m glad they aren’t on her, and I growl and bring her back to whatever gait she was doing before the bucking. That’s the extent of my discipline. I do NOT let her continue the bad behavior. That’s not what longing/lunging is for. And mine are out 24/7 as well.

[Angela_Freda]

And the too short lunge line thing.

How about the infamous video of the person sitting in a swiveling office chair as the horse races around them?

[Sue_B]

Oooh, I knew a cutting horse trainer like that! He’d put a swivel stool in the middle of the round pen, whip in one hand, cell phone in the other!

[Equkelly]

@Incantation

NH is just like any other discipline. There are good trainers and bad trainers. There should be no fear involved. Warwick Schiller in particular develops the opposite in the horse, a deep trusting bond.
John Lyons is very good too, if you follow his methods, like he does, you have a calm, trusting horse. I attended a clinic with his son years ago, which proved my point. The same methods that with John lead to a calm trusting partner, created stressed and anxious horses when misapplied by his son. He pushed too much.

I wouldn’t consider WS t be a true natural horsemanship trainer. He’s even said he doesn’t consider himself to be one either. I know he’ll sometimes do the #naturalhorsemanship tag on social media but I think that’s just to get a wider audience.

There’s plenty of just western horsemanship guys I like a lot and truly respect, Warwick very much included but “natural horsemanship” in its true form, I really don’t agree with anymore. “Natural horsemanship” by definition is using the horse’s “natural” way of communication in order to train them to “respect” you as the leader and that’s absolutely not what warwick or even John Lyons are about.

Don’t get me wrong, ground work and horsemanship are still both super important and there are some things that are obviously going to overlap with NH that aren’t all bad. Good horsemanship and natural horsemanship are just IMO two completely different things. Good horsemanship is about connection and partnership whereas “natural horsemanship” is about dominance and “respect”. The whole thing is built around how a bossier horse communicates with a less bossy herd mate. If that’s the relationship you want to have with your horse, great but I don’t want my horse to see me as just another bossier horse.

[alibi_18]

Well, that was meant as a joke, for this one time, and it’s less dangerous than having the horse run behind you.

Not that I agree if someone does it on a regular basis, but at least the person sees whatever goes on with the horse and will be pulled out of the chair if something happens.

Imagine being pulled back while your hand is over/behind your head…

[TheDBYC]

@Equkelly

The whole thing is built around how a bossier horse communicates with a less bossy herd mate. If that’s the relationship you want to have with your horse, great but I don’t want my horse to see me as just another bossier horse.

Yup. And personally, I don’t believe for a second that horses aren’t well aware that we’re not horses. That’s whyI was always especially careful when handling my full draft horses. Never wanted to get into a situation where my physical strength became quantifiable to them.

[Angela_Freda]

Or hey, they’re both bad ideas.

[endlessclimb]

Yeah but one was meant to be a funny.

Gosh, I can’t imagine being around some of yall in real life. I can just hear how un-fun you are through the screen. I mean, a costume class is just chock full of bad things waiting to happen, too…

[Scribbler]

Here’s a thing about horses. They challenge each other all the time, every day, in tiny ways, to see if boss horse is still up to the task. We can only do attended turnout in the big ring at our barn (horses live 24/7 in stall with small runout) so I clock up hours watching them either stand and socialize or bomb around. The challenge and response will often be tiny, one horse invades space by an inch, the other horse pins their ears.

I want my horses to be happy to see me and for them to understand that if they follow the basic parameters of what I require, I am not going to push them to the extent they are terrified or punish them in ways that seem irrational to them. I dont want them challenging me all the time like they would another horse. I want them coming out of the barn more in “what are we going to do today?” mode.

Easier said than done, I realize.

I have a sense of how often either horse needs a big buck and run play date in turnout, at a certain level of daily work and season/temperature. I don’t longe to get the bucks out. It just looks like a recipe for injury when they keep hitting the end of the line. I actually think my primary horse likes a periodic buck fest to stretch herself. She runs the length of the arena airborne at every second stride. I rarely longe her anymore, anyhow.

Green mare gets longed on line or at liberty most days but not every day of the week. She isn’t a big bucker on longe. She mostly goes w t c halt on voice commands. Even goes slow trot/big trot on voice. I like working her at liberty a fair bit because she likes it plus she isn’t on such a tight circle. We can also longe trot on squares and up and down the arena on squares and circles if we have the place to ourselves.

In all this I see no place for the longe behind me thing because I want her constantly reading my body language. On good days I can get the transitions with my hand. I can get her to halt and then come into the middle by miming drawing in a rope, she follows it. Why would I want a horse like that to blindly stay on a track when my attention is off her? All our longe and liberty work are intended to build on her attention to my cues and intention.

If my cues are wrong or my intention waivers green mare is entirely correct to falter or wander off. I find her incredibly easy and fun on the ground, but I had a not untalented beginner try to send her around a few weeks ago and it really didn’t work. The mare is too attentive to body language. Get a bit ahead of her and she changes direction. Stop pushing with your posture and she drifts into the center of the ring to snuggle. She doesn’t need constant cues but she needs you to hold your position until you ask for a transition.

Anyhow this horse would have been fried fast with Parelli.

[trubandloki]

@endlessclimb

a costume class is just chock full of bad things waiting to happen, too…

Oh, but oh so fun bad things waiting to happen.
Worth all the risk bad things (usually).

I am staying out of the lunging, I mean longing…well no, I do mean lunging because that is how I spell it. Heck, at least I do not say lounging.

[endlessclimb]

@trubandloki

Oh, but oh so fun bad things waiting to happen.

I say this every time I swing a leg over the young one.

[Spudsmyguy]

I had a Parelli trainer tried to get me to lunge my horse while sitting in a chair. I just said it sounded dangerous and no thanks.

[TheDBYC]

Absolutely! All of my 2000+ lbs guys walked nicely on flat halters & stood quietly either tied or next with a human holding them. Manners were definitely instilled. They were quite familiar with my personal boundaries & respected them. I was simply careful to never get into a tug of war with one while teaching or enforcing my boundaries. They knew I wasn’t a horse, they knew my strength was different from theirs. They just knew never to test it. Nor did I give them any reason too. I treat horses by the Dr. Spock method – friendly but firm. And fair.