Mad Barn Ionophore Results

[JB]

@AMWookey

Mad barn also stated in a comment that the necropsy showed zero signs of cardiovascular damage, rather impaction colic.

This is what I would love to see, the actual vet report. I’d find it hard to believe MB would lie/fudge about that

@SolarFlare

Mad Barn stated that they test all incoming ingredients for contamination, finished products, and they don’t have ionospheres on the property themselves - so if the suppliers’ ingredients tested clean and there isn’t any monensin around to accidentally cross-contaminate, then it would seem highly unlikely that there was monensin in the supplement. Where did it come from?

Yeah, I know they have stated that. I also know Tribute claimed to be an ionophore-free facility some years ago and still produced proven contaminated feed which killed horses, they got in big trouble because they actually were NOT an i-free mill despite still claiming to be, so… Again, not saying MB is at fault here, just saying there are still unknowns, and I’m not sure we’ll ever know the whole story about that side of things. It seems the only thing that will validate that MB wasn’t at fault was actually seeing the necropsy to prove - hearts were fine, impactions killed them

@stillgoing

That test, done in Sept. after the OK horse disaster which caused her to question again the MB test results, came back positive for monensin.

that’s just a really long time for a bag/bucket to be around in terms of quality control. Granted, I know zero about the owner’s farm, let alone whether there are any feeds there which contain monensin for some livestock which could have caused the incidental contact. I mean, there’s a reason there’s a no-return policy on a lot of things, becaues the store would have no idea how properly and safely the product was kept

@stillgoing

And it’s possible that a contaminated batch only has spots of the ingredient while other parts of the same batch are “clean.”

This is absolutely possible, see my comment about corn kernels. Except, a critical part of this is that allegedly (because I don’t think anyone but maybe MB has seen it) the necropsy showed zero heart damaged, and showed impactions in both horses.

@stillgoing

It really shouldn’t be this hard to just feed safe food

It is, and it isn’t. If nobody used Alltech products because of a potential contamination, however small, then there are some really useful ingredients that would never be used, unless someone manages to come up with an equivalent which isn’t simple or easy

[Vesper_Sparrow]

Basically, until I’ve had time to look at the evidence for myself, which will take a day or so. I still have a half of a container, so this won’t affect Mad Barn.

[Simkie]

@stillgoing

The product in question came back after the second test showing positive for monensin. So do the math

So I actually did “do the math” above, and even if the A & M lab result is correct, and the Mad Barn test result is not: the amount of monesin that A & M found is not anywhere near enough to kill. It is 10000 times less than the LD50 of monesin.

Obviously, any level of monesin in a product that is produced in a “ionophone free facility” is a problem. But nothing here–the necropsies or the testing–is indicative that the deaths of these horses was caused by monesin.

[AMWookey]

She is apparently in my neck of the woods (for a cyber security specialist, I shouldn’t be able to figure that out). I will be very interested to see her vet report.

If it was something feed related, there are chances that others around us would have used similar batches etc, there aren’t many places to get feed here. If you get alfalfa or beet pulp, it’s typically just a local mill. If she is wrong about mad barn, but not the cause of death, I for one would like to know.

[Maya01]

They wouldn’t be getting contamination from their ingredient suppliers.

Can’t comment on the palatability issue - they’ve always had refusals with their products. It is an inherent issue with feeding a concentrated vitamin and mineral supplement. The reason some horses do better with the pelleted Omneity vs the loose mineral version is simply due to the dilution of the minerals with oat hulls to form the pellet. Some horses are pickier than others, and for the picky ones, feeding a 0.5-1kg/day ration balancer is a better option. Because it is so concentrated, any shifts in mixing, formulation, moisture, or temperature of the pelleting (which can result in a darker brown pellet, and a more bitter flavour) is something your horse is going to pick up on.

[4horses]

Even if the level is not enough to kill in itself, what happens if you feed that much on a daily basis over a few weeks?

She may be making this up and maybe something else killed her horses, but we can’t really jump to conclusions.

If I take a handful of pills and grind them up and sprinkle them in my feed, and then grab a handful, one handful may have no pills or it may have a really high level, or anywhere in between. I would not expect something like monensin to be mixed evenly in a contaminated product so short of post mortem testing, there’s no actual way to determine the dose a horse actually was exposed to.

If other horses died during this time, some people may just bury and mourn their horse with no post mortem exam. Obviously if multiple animals get sick that would raise suspicion but if you lose one horse that just happens to be on that supplement , people wouldn’t readily assume it was the supplement. I can definitely see cases being missed, if there are other cases.

This reminds me of that investigation into Purina for causing the deaths of pets. Nothing was ever found according to the FDA. There’s even a Facebook group titled Purina kills dogs and cats.

Sometimes it’s really hard to determine the truth behind these things. The company almost always denies there is an issue. Recalls for most products are voluntary so they don’t have to issue a recall even if something was wrong, they can attempt to cover it up.

I sure hope this is all fake news from a disturbed individual but it does make you wonder.

[4horses]

I didn’t see there was a necropsy. Can you please share it?

[Scribbler]

But up thread it says the horses were determined by necropsy to have died from impaction colic.

[cph1957]

Exactly, and it is being fed to cattle that are going to be used for human consumption, so how safe is that for humans?

[Simkie]

@4horses

Even if the level is not enough to kill in itself, what happens if you feed that much on a daily basis over a few weeks?

But it wasn’t. The horses were fed this product for a few days.

This is clearly a terrible thing that’s happened, and this owner is looking for an answer and someone to blame. But the necropsy indicated no cardiac damage and impaction. It’s not monesin.

[AMWookey]

She shared articles now discussing how if it’s death over time as opposed to one big chunk, it will present like colic.

@4horses we haven’t seen the necrospy yet, she said she was going to release the vet report, but as far as I saw last night it hadn’t been yet. The accounting of necropsy came from madbarn, who spoke with her vet during the course of investigation.

What gets me is she is always going after Scott’s education, but the CEO doesn’t need to be the one with all the education. That’s why he has hired a very well educated team underneath him to do this.

[Simkie]

@AMWookey

She shared articles now discussing how if it’s death over time as opposed to one big chunk, it will present like colic.

Over time? She fed the product for “a few days.” She herself is describing very short exposure, not months of long term exposure.

She also says her living mare has suffered “substantial heart damage” (she apparently hasn’t verified that with any veterinary testing?) but you’re saying she’s now claiming monesin caused the others to colic, despite saying earlier they died of heart failure, and despite no actual long term exposure?

I understand it’s a terrible, awful thing to lose a horse, never mind two, suddenly and without answers. I feel for her in that. But none of this lines up, and changing the story mid telling doesn’t help.

[AMWookey]

Yeah there are a lot of head scratchers to be honest. I’m still waiting to see who the vet is.

[Pehsness]

@Scribbler

Mad Barn had a FB post refuting this today, I hadn’t seen this original post to know what the complaint was. I do think if there was a real problem it would affect more than two horses.

Oh I see it’s been linked already never mind

The original post was on an Ottawa area horse page (facebook) and was apparently deleted.

It is very, very obvious to me that this woman is batshit. A quick read through her facebook page is very enlightening, the friends that support her on the facebook page are the same people who thought covid (and now monkey pox) was a money-making conspiracy. One of the people heavily questioning Mad Barn on that facebook post is a Naturopath student suggesting their inclusion of Vitamin A in their supplements is toxic and unnecessary… and it goes on.

Like Mad Barn or don’t like them, that’s a persons perogative. I’ve been feeding Mad Barn since it was a start up and they are a very good company who has committed the mortal sin of getting “big” and opening itself up to BS like this.

Someone on that facebook post mentioned Trouw Nutrition (Shur Gain). I don’t know if that brand crosses the border or if it is re-labelled, but it is a place where this type of thing is a REAL risk. They manufacture all manner of livestock feeds in the same facility. Places like that are a risk. Places like Mad Barn… it’s just the crazy trying to bring down a successful local company.

I reserve the right to be wrong about this, but I have a very, very hard time envisioning that reality.

PS: Their subscription service is amazing.

[Pehsness]

@Simkie

So I actually did “do the math” above, and even if the A & M lab result is correct, and the Mad Barn test result is not: the amount of monesin that A & M found is not anywhere near enough to kill. It is 10000 times less than the LD50 of monesin.

Obviously, any level of monesin in a product that is produced in a “ionophone free facility” is a problem. But nothing here–the necropsies or the testing–is indicative that the deaths of these horses was caused by monesin.

Yes, also pointed out in the Facebook post. Not by Mad Barn, but by someone else in support. Mad Barn concurred.

Their response to this actually gives me more confidence in them. They’re not on the defensive.

The person making the claim is posting correspondence from lawyers on her facebook page. Emails. Who does that??

[endlessclimb]

Someone who won’t win their claim in court, I suppose.

[JB]

@Maya01

They wouldn’t be getting contamination from their ingredient suppliers.

Any ingredient coming from an ionophore-safe facility has the potential to be contaminated. Allegedly Alltech, which provides the Yea-Sacc in the AT, is i-safe, not i-free

@4horses

Even if the level is not enough to kill in itself, what happens if you feed that much on a daily basis over a few weeks?

Allegedly these horses only ate this for a few days, so assuming the max contamination was that 34.6ppb, it’s not nearly enough to cause damage, much less kill them in that time. I DO suppose if it was constantly contaminated at that level, and they ate it for months, then they could sustain heart damage, but they’d still be sick, no dead, at least not yet.

@4horses

She may be making this up and maybe something else killed her horses, but we can’t really jump to conclusions.

MB says they’ve seen the necropsy and there was no heart damage, only impactions in both horses

@4horses

If I take a handful of pills and grind them up and sprinkle them in my feed, and then grab a handful, one handful may have no pills or it may have a really high level, or anywhere in between. I would not expect something like monensin to be mixed evenly in a contaminated product so short of post mortem testing, there’s no actual way to determine the dose a horse actually was exposed to.

Right, this has been mentioned several times, it’s very easy for contamination from anything to be unevenly distributed which means no, there’s no way to know what dose, if any, was consumed. Add to that at least one sample seems to have tested at < 1ppb and it’s more likely they were exposed to little to none

@4horses

If other horses died during this time, some people may just bury and mourn their horse with no post mortem exam. Obviously if multiple animals get sick that would raise suspicion but if you lose one horse that just happens to be on that supplement , people wouldn’t readily assume it was the supplement. I can definitely see cases being missed, if there are other cases.

2 horses died, allegedly about the same time

@cph1957

it is being fed to cattle that are going to be used for human consumption, so how safe is that for humans?

I looked this up yesterda because someone asked me, and I had no idea, and found this:

"For monensin, several studies with both 14C-monensin and unlabeled compound have shown that following oral administration in cattle and other species, monensin is rapidly absorbed and extensively metabolized by the liver and that most of the administered monensin and its metabolites are excreted in the bile. "

“Thus, exposure of humans to residues of monensin in meat or milk from animals treated according to the label instructions will be very limited and will be due primarily to the parent compound. Furthermore, when residues, primarily the parent compound, are present in animal products intended for human consumption, they will be at minimal levels for which a sufficient margin of safety has been demonstrated in the toxicology studies (Novilla, 2004).”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/monensin

@Simkie

Over time? She fed the product for “a few days.” She herself is describing very short exposure, not months of long term exposure.

AMWookey said she was sharing articles, not a recount of her situation. That’s unfortunately the case with small dose long-term poisoning, and most wouldn’t do a necropsy if it was a one-off death that presented like a colic of unknown causes. Why she’s sharing them I don’t know, maybe to warn others that any colics if they’d been feeding this product might not be colic?

@Pehsness

Someone on that facebook post mentioned Trouw Nutrition (Shur Gain). I don’t know if that brand crosses the border or if it is re-labelled, but it is a place where this type of thing is a REAL risk. They manufacture all manner of livestock feeds in the same facility. Places like that are a risk.

Every inonphore-safe facility brings a risk, absolutely.

[endlessclimb]

Since we’re on the topic of supplements, does anyone know where KIS Trace is made? That’s what I feed, but I’m not die-hard on them and would be willing to switch to something safer if it’s out there.

[sascha]

@Maya01

They wouldn’t be getting contamination from their ingredient suppliers.

It can absolutely happen, and doesn’t even need to be from their supplier but from whatever bulk truck is carrying their ingredients. If bulk trucks that carry ionophore containing products and then are not properly cleaned before carrying loads of perfectly safe ingredients to a feed plant, there can be contamination.

[Scribbler]

I noticed that Mad Barn posted a FB article about impaction colic yesterday. They didn’t make the direct link to this case.